Is the Resurrurredction really a historical fact, or not?

[polonius]

In Paul’s oldest and first epistle, written in 51-52 AD, he states without qualification that:

“Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,* will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.g17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together* with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.� 1 Thes 4:15-17

But it didn’t happen. Thus we must conclude that either Paul or the Lord were incorrect.

How much else of what Paul told us is also incorrect?

Recall, it was Paul who reported the Resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 written about 53-57 AD.

Was his story historically correct (did it actually happen) or is it just a story that was used by and embellished by the writers of the New Testament?

Since the basis of Christian belief is the historical fact of the Resurrection, let’s examine the evidence and see if the Resurrection really happened or can an analysis of the story show that it is improbable if not impossible.

Opinions?

[Clownboat]

Weren't you gullible for believing in the Holy Spirit, yes?

I was indoctrinated as a child. I was young and impressionable and my Mommy was the main source.

You claim this is a debate site, which it is, but where is your evidence that you can speak in tongues?

As a born again, spirit filled, drunk in the Holy Ghost Christian of 2 decades, you're just going to have to trust me.
Have you seen me make untrustworthy claims or odd claims here that would make you question my reliability?

Why do you continue to show poor reading comprehension? I believed in Satan, Angels and demons for 2 decades.
How many times must I and others tell you that we were true believers? I wanted to keep my beliefs, but perhaps I'm just not as gullible as others, or perhaps there is another mechanism at play. You tell me.

Maybe you were true believers in that you really believed God and Satan existed but were not sure. In the context of the Bible, true believers refer to disciples of Jesus who have no doubt He is the Son of God.

Look at you! You will do and say anything to keep feeling special about your religious beliefs. You invoke devils and aliens and you convince yourself that you know what must have happened as for all of us losing our beliefs.
I know you by your fruit.

They have their proof.

Either learn what the word means, retract your statement or supply this proof.

If I was so gullible, why do I not subscribe to the whole of mainstream Christianity? A gullible person would accept everything they are told.

You are even confused about what gullible means. Gullible people are easily persuaded. Gullible people do not believe everything they are told. More war with language in order to feel like you have a point to make?

And you went with demons, angels, aliens and devils as the logical explanation? Why? What evidence made you believe such things? I was indoctrinated to believe in them, but when I realized that they could not be shown to be anything more than make believe, I started questioning them as answers. What's your excuse?

When you have experienced these things for yourself, then you know.

I have experience make believe for myself. This I know.

Why should I believe in devils without any proof they exist?

You shouldn't. You should examine everything carefully and hold on to that which is good. How have you examined devils?

A logical thought that there must be a source for all that is evil. Evil that is not necessary for human evolution.

You're going to need to reform this statement. Not sure what you are driving at.

Yes, you asked me what my excuse for believing in these things.

Still waiting. What is your excuse for all the un-evidenced things you believe in? Everything from angels, demons, devils, aliens to the Catholic church being satanic. Who knows what else you are willing to believe?

But I do believe in aliens and Bigfoot as I said which Christianity most certainly does not support. Ironic considering references to aliens feature in the OT. I don't think all religious claims are devoid of some truth.

There is nothing ironic about ancient, ignorant man believing in aliens. Even to this day people make claims about aliens. Unfortunately, a claim being made is all that some people need in order to believe.

The one making the action happen! Me Claire, I'm doing it, I'm in control. I no longer believe that it is some unknown language that only a god can understand or whatever you wish to offer as an explanation.
Seriously, are angels and demons better answers for sounds coming out of my mouth than me making the noises?!? You claim your family is not crazy, so why are angels and demons a better explanation?

Wait a second. Do you believe that it is humanly possible to speak in languages one does not understand? How does that happen?

Yes, you can speak a language you don't understand (repeat after me for example). You cannot understand a language you don't understand though.

[marco]

It seems to be a way for a cult to strengthen their perceived correctness in the eyes of the cult followers. It also helps to create an Us vs Them attitude that cults need to create unity within the group.

In my country Catholics have to tolerate hate marches every July to commemorate a battle that is misconstrued. In Northern Ireland a few years back little children of 5 were stoned by grown up people who disliked them for being "Catholic". Dawkins says there are no Catholic children and no Muslim children. If only he were correct!

You are absolutely correct in identifying point scoring. It reminds me of the Pharisee holding the Publican in contempt. My best regards/

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 1034 by Claire Evans]

That's what I said. God would not favour a gullible person over a skeptic.

Now let's see what Claire said before...

And God knows that to truly know Him is to believe without seeing.

(from post 1026)

Someone who believes X without seeing (without evidence) is what we call gullible.

You put in brackets "without evidence". You can truly believe knowing God yet not see what He is doing. It is trusting that whether God leads us is for our benefit even though we may not see it.

You aren't me so how can you know for sure I don't know if my God is real?

You aren't us, yet you posit that the reason we didn't get responses from God is that we have some sort of ego problems. You aren't us, yet you posit that Roman Catholics are devil worshippers.

No, just because there is devil worship from the Vatican in Catholicism, doesn't mean the average Catholic is a devil worshiper. They are just none of the wiser. Here is an example:

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/ ... n_vatican/

"A renowned exorcist in Rome recently released a book of memoirs in which he declares to know of the existence of Satanic sects in the Vatican where participation reaches all the way to the College of Cardinals. A second demonologist, also residing in Rome, entered the debate this week, clarifying the origins of the information and defending the Vatican's clergy as an "edifying and virtuous" collection of prelates."

Does the average Catholic know this? Absolutely not.

No one goes to hell for finite crimes. They go to hell for crimes they are not repentant for.

Show this claim to be true. Why should any of us believe what you say about hell? You may say to us that this is what God/Jesus/Holy Spirit revealed to you, but without a similar 'revelation' of our own, all we'd have at the end of the day is Claire Evans typing onto an internet forum what she believes hell to be about.

Weren't you talking hypothetically? I am saying this is what the Bible claims.

Would they like to know the evidence of God by taking on the cross? If I had to say to Person A, abandon oneself and stamp out all ego, do you think they automatically would. Why are there so many Christians who don't understand things yet don't demand a physical sign? Why are you special?

By asking that question, you're implying that I am NOT special. I thought one of the standard teachings of Christendom was that God loves ALL of us, that we are ALL special in his eyes. Your rhetoric here comes across as elitist - you're implying that you have the proof of God that you can prove to yourself, therefore that means you've found favour in his eyes. When we come along and tell you that we don't have the same or similar evidence, you mock us for supposedly demanding to be special.
That's what God supposedly treating people differently is. If he really is real, then YOU'RE the one who is special, and I (along with KenRU and Clownboat and the others) are not, despite us having previously dedicated ourselves to him.

Specials is someone who is more important than the rest.

Definition:

better, greater, or otherwise different from what is usual.
"they always made a special effort at Christmas"
synonyms: exceptional, particular, extra special, unusual, marked, singular, uncommon, notable, noteworthy, remarkable, outstanding, unique

We are all important in God's eyes but that doesn't make us all special or else the word special would lose its meaning.

I did not mock you. It is a fact that if believe you should get favours from God then you think you are special. Especially favours like miracles.

We're basically asking why doesn't God treat us the same as he apparently treats you?

Because I have humility. I don't demand miracles.

Have you done your research into the existence of aliens? Or don't you think you need to study it like religious people ought to study different theories about how man got here?

I in fact have. At the moment, I think it likely that non-Earth-bound life exists (recent astronomical research has found a few planets that are likely to contain life similar to Earth life), but I do not as yet have evidence for life actually existing. I think it plausible that there is life 'out there' somewhere. However, I will not speculate on what forms that life may take, what it thinks (if it even does), what it believes, etc.

Why won't you speculate on what form they may take? If you won't speculate, how can you expand your horizon?

If you are a non believer then obviously you were never spirit filled. You thought you were.

And yet Clownboat prayed. For decades. He did the VERY THING you say over and over to do, and got no results, Claire.
Imagine if I, as a computer tech, told you that to get your computer working, all you have to do is press the power button. You try it, over and over. You tell me, nothing's happening. I tell you...press the power button. You try it, over and over, and then tell me nothing's happening.
At some point, in order to not sound like a broken record, I would have to drop the 'press the power button' line. I would have to consider other things...like maybe, is the computer plugged in? Are all the computer components inside?
At what point will you drop the 'all you have to do is pray' line and consider that maybe, just maybe, that doesn't work?

Bad analogy. The problem with all of you is that none of you have ever considered that you guys may be the problem why you could never reach God. It's God's fault so I'm not surprised you do not know Him.

[Claire Evans]

You aren't me so how can you know for sure I don't know if my God is real? There would be no reason for me to believe anything unless I had the proof God exists that is provable to me. Why believe ancient people automatically?

As an observer I see Clownboat asking logical questions and your answer is simply: I know and you don't. You seem to be in possession of a magic ring that tells you the truth. If we count ourselves as wise beings, magic rings are not in our armoury of wisdom.

I am not a special person who possesses special knowledge. Those who Gnostic Christians. I don't know why people cannot appreciate that accepting the Holy Spirit means we can be taught as illustrated in the Bible.

You ask why one would believe tales of Moses and Abraham, Lot and Adam automatically. But that is what you do. To examine the exploits of these individuals, fictitious or not, is to come up with nonsensical scenarios. BUT, if such scenarios were even rarely encountered in the recorded history of the past 2000 years, say, then we could place some minimal trust in them. We KNOW how the world works, far, far better than did old Abraham and Moses. We KNOW why they thought God would descend from a mountain (heaven being in their sky). And knowing all this, we still think they chatted with a deity who stupidly chose big boulders to write on. I wonder how such belief helps humanity to make progress.

It was never automatic like with the click of a finger. We believe in personal proof from God unlike tales of Moses which need research.

Abraham and Moses may not have known why the world works but have you not considered they were in contact with beings far superior to them? The mountain thing actually has nothing to do with a heavenly being in the sky. In fact, many cultures around the world believe the gods lived on mountains.

"Ruins of a 4000-year-old observatory discovered on a mountain in Macedonia reveal that the ancients tracked celestial movements from on high with remarkable precision. And in Peru, the descendants of the Incans continue an ancient pilgrimage tradition in order to commune with mountain spirits known as Apu. Could these gods have been extraterrestrials? Did they use remote mountain peaks to interact with early man? Might this explain why humans have been drawn to mountains for thousands of years."

http://www.educatinghumanity.com/2014/0 ... tains.html

Here are many modern references:

http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicunder.html

[Claire Evans]

That's what I said. God would not favour a gullible person over a skeptic.

Yet, according to you he does it seems. You are willing to believe some god claims while you reject others, and all without any evidence.

Not empirical evidence, but personal evidence which cannot be explained. If I had personal evidence that the OT was infallible, why would I doubt it?

I like to know that my beliefs are true because I understand that there are false beliefs out there. I'm not gullible enough now that I am a grown man to just accept fantastic claims without any supporting evidence.
It must be fine for you in some cases, yet not in others. If I'm wrong, are you interested in my ocean front property in Arizona? I'll part with it for a steal! You don't need to see it I'm sure and I can arrange a remote closing.
No!?!? You want to be sure about your purchase first!?!? What if I got a really, really old person to corroborate my claim? Would that help?

You are comparing earthly things to the supernatural. It doesn't make for a good analogy. What we can do is to agree to disagree.

You aren't me so how can you know for sure I don't know if my God is real?

The gods haven't been shown to interact with our reality, therefore, you cannot know that a god or gods exists. What you can do is employ faith, however, we know that faith leads to false beliefs, so faith as an avenue to claim knowing something is not reliable. All this is known without the need for me to know you.

Really? Consider this:

http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicunder.html

Even people in the military believe that these gods, or aliens, walk among us.

"former U.S. Military commander Dean said that,
"what really worried the NATO top brass was that some of the visitors looked so much like us that they were virtually indistinguishable. Dean says that NATO generals were paranoid over the possibility that some of the extraterrestrial visitors could be walking in the corridors of NATO or the Pentagon, or even the White House itself."
Dr. Michael Salla further reports in an interview documented by Bob Hieronimus, “Transcript of Interview with Bob Dean, March 24, 1996" that Major Dean said:
"There was a human group that looked so much like us that that really drove the admirals and the generals crazy because they determined that these people, and they had seen them repeatedly, they had had contact with them…. These people looked so much like us they could sit next to you on a plane or in a restaurant and you'd never know the difference.

And being military and being primarily paranoid, that bothered the generals and the admirals a little bit. That the fact that these intelligent entities could be involved with us, walking up and down the corridors of SHAPE [Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe], walking down the corridors of the Pentagon. My God, it even dawned on a couple of them that these guys could even be in the White House! Of course, as I said, being paranoid in those years it really shook things up a little bit."

"Dean’s testimony is a vital key in unlocking the truth of extraterrestrials living among the human population. His testimony conclusively demonstrates that official military and government agencies are aware of this possibility, and in fact would undoubtedly have been developing strategies for such a contingency", says Dr. Salla.

"While NATO viewed extraterrestrials living among us in the context of a classified Study assessing UFOs as a potential security threat, based on contactee testimonies, it appears that the extraterrestrial visitors are blending in to learn about the human population," elaborates Dr. Salla."

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vida_ ... n_18zi.htm

Now if aliens interact with humans today, why not back then with Moses?

There would be no reason for me to believe anything unless I had the proof God exists that is provable to me.

Not true. Gods provide answers to unknown questions. Having a belief that you know what will happen to you when you die is a reason to believe in the gods without proof of the gods. Being convinced by your parents that there is a hell that you could spend eternity burning in is yet another.

Nobody truly knows everything about what will happen when they die. Near Death Experiences correspond a lot with what I believe yet that is another topic altogether. However, I have experienced some spiritual hell that was so bad, I was considering suicide. It was demonic in nature.

Why believe ancient people automatically?

I assume this is rhetorical, so tell me, why do you?

I don't believe anything automatically. If I come across a claim that is written by ancient people, I investigate it. Sometimes you will find that what ancient people believed actually come about from corruption.

No one goes to hell for finite crimes. They go to hell for crimes they are not repentant for. Unless you think it is reasonable to expect every unrepentant criminal to get off scot free.

What I expect is for you to provide a reason as to why any of the hell claims are trustworthy. I know you believe them, but why should anyone else. Is this a case of a god preferring the gullible? If not, then provide an actual reason. If you cannot come up with one, you could always use it as a tool to threaten. Works great on children anyway.

Because, as I have said, I have experienced a tiny fraction of it myself. I say this because I felt some of God's presence withdrawn 10 years ago and in came demonic torment. I didn't want to live anymore. I prayed and nothing happened. I couldn't understand why God didn't help me. Did He enjoy seeing me suffer? It was then that I almost lost my faith. Once I considered suicide, I was delivered. Why did God wait so long? I look back and see now because it has spiritually refined me. We have to experience evil in order to know God.

I now know why Jesus said, "Father, why have you forsaken Me?"

You can experience the evil side of the supernatural which would make itself very obvious but I don't suggest you do that.

I have tried and it failed. Even the dark side of the supernatural doesn't work when I'm around. Perhaps a good explanation is that I have god blood in me, or maybe dragon blood? Sound believable? No, I got it, its the demons! Demons must put off some undetectable thing that stops the supernatural from working when I'm around.

What did you do?

Fear of hell is not loving God nor is indoctrination.

Didn't say it was. I said it is a reason that you left out for believing in the gods.

I really don't understand.

And when I say love for God makes one believe in Him, I don't mean the belief of God even though they aren't sure He exists. Believe also means trust.

Please don't battle the English language.
If you mean trust, please say trust. When you mean believe, please say believe. Why the word games? It comes across as nothing more than an attempt to weasel your way out of a corner.

In this context, trust means belief. People trusted and believed in Jesus. In other words, they believed what He said. Belief without proof of something's existence is different. That doesn't dove tail with trust.

I am skeptical about things in the Bible but does that mean I ought to lose faith?

You have failed so far to show that you are skeptical. You point to the gods, devils, demons, angels and extraterrestrials for explanations and you think I'm going to believe your claim that you are skeptical? Actions speak louder than words.

Haven't I? Is not believing in some parts of the Bible mean that I'm not skeptical about it? If I wasn't, I believed everything in it.

Does it justify it? If one has to tell Person A how to know God exists, then they most likely would like some physical manifestation. Would they like to know the evidence of God by taking on the cross? If I had to say to Person A, abandon oneself and stamp out all ego, do you think they automatically would. Why are there so many Christians who don't understand things yet don't demand a physical sign? Why are you special?

I'm special because I'm me, just like you are also special.
However, your strawman has not been said here. In fact, I have simply asked for some evidence that would point to the supernatural. You have none, so you pretend I have asked for evidence that I have not asked for. This is underhanded IMO.

If we are both special, then it negates the word special. If everyone is special, then it's the norm, not the exception.

Did you ask me to prove the supernatural? No, you wanted a sign from God that is supernatural. You did ask for evidence so what do you mean I pretended you asked for evidence that you did not ask for?

Have you done your research into the existence of aliens? Or don't you think you need to study it like religious people ought to study different theories about how man got here?

Yes. Now what claims about aliens have I made that you would like me to provide evidence for?

Not sure. I have many people corresponding with me so can you refresh me?

If you are a non believer then obviously you were never spirit filled. You thought you were.

You are correct! I never was! We agree! Woohoo!
You are now where I once was, you think you are spirit filled just like I once did. In truth, it seems that neither of us were/are at this time.
Remember one thing though, I am open to being shown that there is a spiritual realm.

We can agree to disagree here.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1057 by Claire Evans]

You put in brackets "without evidence". You can truly believe knowing God yet not see what He is doing. It is trusting that whether God leads us is for our benefit even though we may not see it.

I did that to translate what you said into terms that I understand. I can trust someone I have already been convinced exists. It is impossible for me to 'trust' a being I am not convinced exists. I trust my sisters when I hear from their mother that they are practicing their dancing - that is because I have interacted with the sisters, I know that they exist.
In my mind, I separate seeing, believing and trusting into separate categories. I will never mix the three.

No, just because there is devil worship from the Vatican in Catholicism, doesn't mean the average Catholic is a devil worshiper. They are just none of the wiser.

So what? Even if what you say is true, there are groups within the Roman Catholic denomination who do not in fact worship Jesus and in fact worship Satan, so what? Am I supposed to care if a high ranking Mormon in fact secretly disbelieves the claims made about Joseph Smith and instead believes Islam?

Weren't you talking hypothetically? I am saying this is what the Bible claims.

The Bible is a contradictory text/collection of texts. If I wanted to, I could put my hands on any number of verses that say different to what you claim.

Specials is someone who is more important than the rest.

Says the person who apparently has the evidence required for belief in God and mocks ex Christians who ask why they don't have it as well.

I did not mock you. It is a fact that if believe you should get favours from God

Where have I said I asked for favours from God? I have pointed out to you numerous times that I never asked for anything selfish. I prayed for guidance, for help, often until I cried (yeah yeah, I know, you don't want me to talk about this again). I didn't pray for eternal life, for riches, for bullies to be removed or anything like that. I prayed for God to use me as his tool.
Basically, in a nutshell, I was as unselfish in my prayers as it is possible to be.

Because I have humility. I don't demand miracles.

Neither did I. I just prayed for guidance, to be told what to do. No response.

Why won't you speculate on what form they may take? If you won't speculate, how can you expand your horizon?

Because I don't have knowledge of their possible environments. I'm not versed in planetology (if there even is such a field of science, I see my spellchecker is marking that word in red). If I was to speculate on what forms life may take on other planets without having knowledge of their environment(s), my speculations would be wild guesses.
Just the same as a possible supernatural realm. I have no knowledge of a supernatural realm, (if it even exists) so therefore I do not posit what it is like or who or what lives there.

bad analogy. The problem with all of you is that none of you have ever considered that you guys may be the problem

We have, and we know it's not us. All of us have said we were as good as good can be as children. I know for a fact I was good. I went to school, did my homework, prayed to God, made sure to help people, the whole she-bang.
If you want to convince us that there was some failing in us, then the onus is on you to prove that claim (which obviously you cannot do).

It's God's fault so I'm not surprised you do not know Him.

You're the one giving us the equivalent of a phone number, and when we 'dial' it, there's no answer. In fact, there's no sign that the number is 'real', that it actually is a number that is in use.
It would be one thing if, when I pray/dial, I find out that there is in fact someone or something on the other end, but that they won't respond to me. That at least would indicate yes there is something there.

Go on. Try the following number. 085-1432-14583-13901. I typed those numbers randomly. I tried it just now myself, and my phone says the number is not recognised, to check the number and try again.

Also are you going to respond about your earlier claim that God is not logical?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1059 by Claire Evans]

Once I considered suicide, I was delivered.

Did you actually move to go through with it? I ask this because I did. I was a moment away from slashing my wrists with a sharp blade, and yet, no god did anything.
Also, ask yourself why God would apparently be playing games with you? He'd let you get so bad that you're strongly considering suicide, and only then does he come back.

If that were a human boyfriend, I'd call that boyfriend abusive. He gets you emotionally attached to him, leaves you, watches while you suffer and then only steps back into the room once you're at the precipice of ending your life.

We have to experience evil in order to know God.

Implying of course that those of us who do not know your god have not experienced evil. I grew up in a VERY tormented household. Did I mention that at least two of my sisters were raped by our father? That's just one of the things that went on with my family.
And yet (looks around)...no God.

Belief without proof of something's existence is different. That doesn't dove tail with trust.

Exactly! And yet, you have said to us to pray, said to us to trust God, ALL without the proof that God's existence.

Is not believing in some parts of the Bible mean that I'm not skeptical about it?

Not just the Bible. You're far too quick to believe in practically every outlandish claim there is, such as Bigfoot, UFOs and whatnot. You give us links to people who say they have "cosmic top clearance" (which isn't a clearance that actually exists), who make all sorts of various claims about the US government supposedly being in contact with aliens, and yet, do not provide evidence.

Did you ask me to prove the supernatural? No, you wanted a sign from God that is supernatural.

Which would drumroll please! Prove the supernatural!

[Clownboat]

Bad analogy. The problem with all of you is that none of you have ever considered that you guys may be the problem why you could never reach God. It's God's fault so I'm not surprised you do not know Him.

This is beyond ridiculous.

I for decades felt that I had a relationship with a god (the Christian one). I learned about evolution and global flood scenarios as I got older from sources that were not my church, nor my Christian school. This caused me to question this relationship with a god claim I was so proud to make.
"I don't have a religion, I have a relationship!" I was special wasn't I?

Countless tear filled prayers where I asked god to use me as he will and to make himself real in my life went unanswered. Me, not being insane at some point had to stop asking because the lack of a reply was consistent 100% of the time.

I was a willing servant. I reject your ego that makes you think that you knew me and what I went through. Your ignorance in this matter is staggering, yet your ego lets you continue to think you have all the answers.

Person A: "I'm so right and their explanations go against my claims. Therefore I can know (without actually knowing) what really happened with them which is basically whatever it takes to keep my claims as true, because I'm so right".

Pride comes before a fall.

[Clownboat]

That's what I said. God would not favour a gullible person over a skeptic.

Yet, according to you he does it seems. You are willing to believe some god claims while you reject others, and all without any evidence.

Not empirical evidence, but personal evidence which cannot be explained.

Personal evidence? I personally verify that I have ocean front property for sale in Arizona that I will sell to you for a steal. You have once again personally heard this from me which is more than the gods do.
Is personal evidence actually relevant like you pretend? Or would you require more before making this purchase?

If I had personal evidence that the OT was infallible, why would I doubt it?

Easy one. Human error. It's a real thing, no matter how egotistical some people are. Being able to assure yourself (generic) that your claims are true is not assurance that the claims actually are true.
You now have personal evidence that I have ocean front property in AZ. Now answer your own question and explain why you doubt it.

I like to know that my beliefs are true because I understand that there are false beliefs out there. I'm not gullible enough now that I am a grown man to just accept fantastic claims without any supporting evidence.
It must be fine for you in some cases, yet not in others. If I'm wrong, are you interested in my ocean front property in Arizona? I'll part with it for a steal! You don't need to see it I'm sure and I can arrange a remote closing.
No!?!? You want to be sure about your purchase first!?!? What if I got a really, really old person to corroborate my claim? Would that help?

You are comparing earthly things to the supernatural. It doesn't make for a good analogy. What we can do is to agree to disagree.

Actually, I am demonstrating that you are inconsistent. You want evidence for my ocean front property in AZ, but when it comes to ancient men making claims about the Bible god and only the Bible god, you are more than happy to believe without evidence.

You aren't me so how can you know for sure I don't know if my God is real?

The gods haven't been shown to interact with our reality, therefore, you cannot know that a god or gods exists. What you can do is employ faith, however, we know that faith leads to false beliefs, so faith as an avenue to claim knowing something is not reliable. All this is known without the need for me to know you.

Really? Consider this:

http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicunder.html

Even people in the military believe that these gods, or aliens, walk among us.

I think you need to stick with reputable sites. You display a willingness to believe things without reason.
How many of these alien tunnels have you seen for yourself? How much actual work have you put in? More than a Google search? Again, I bring you back to my property in AZ.

Now if aliens interact with humans today, why not back then with Moses?

Show me actual evidence of aliens. I understand that humans make all sorts of claims. I'm not interested in claims, give me something real. Let's be honest, you 'could' be some crazy crack pot.

Not true. Gods provide answers to unknown questions. Having a belief that you know what will happen to you when you die is a reason to believe in the gods without proof of the gods. Being convinced by your parents that there is a hell that you could spend eternity burning in is yet another.

Nobody truly knows everything about what will happen when they die. Near Death Experiences correspond a lot with what I believe yet that is another topic altogether. However, I have experienced some spiritual hell that was so bad, I was considering suicide. It was demonic in nature.

Nice dodge.
You said: There would be no reason for me to believe anything unless I had the proof God exists that is provable to me.
I provided other reasons and you failed to acknowledge them, much less address them.

I assume this is rhetorical, so tell me, why do you?

I don't believe anything automatically.

Obviously not 'anything' automatically, but let's be honest, you believe in a lot of things that are make believe IMO for no other reason then it helps you to make sense of your favorite religion. When it comes to other religions, you do not use the same approach, therefore I must consider your bias when you make these odd claims, many of which go directly what I witnessed as a previous believer.

No one goes to hell for finite crimes. They go to hell for crimes they are not repentant for. Unless you think it is reasonable to expect every unrepentant criminal to get off scot free.

What I expect is for you to provide a reason as to why any of the hell claims are trustworthy. I know you believe them, but why should anyone else. Is this a case of a god preferring the gullible? If not, then provide an actual reason. If you cannot come up with one, you could always use it as a tool to threaten. Works great on children anyway.

Because, as I have said, I have experienced a tiny fraction of it myself.

Again, says the alien, devil, angel and demon believing person. It's no suprise that you use them as examples to make sense of things you are going through.

Some may analyze what they could do better or different when going through tough times. Others will offer angels and demons as explanations for it. Either way, gods, angels, demons, devils and aliens cannot ever be shown to ever be an actual cause. An explanation yes, but a cause... no.

I say this because I felt some of God's presence withdrawn 10 years ago and in came demonic torment.

I'm sorry you went through a tough time, but I'm not surprised in the slightest to hear you blame demons for the torment. It seems to be your go to after all.

I didn't want to live anymore. I prayed and nothing happened.

I noticed this theme as well.

I couldn't understand why God didn't help me. Did He enjoy seeing me suffer? It was then that I almost lost my faith.

Again with blaming demons, gods and such for your problems. These seem to be your go to entities for explanations even though you have no actual evidence for their existence. But if it works for you...

Once I considered suicide, I was delivered. Why did God wait so long?

Please show me that a god was involved. I already know these are your go to's for explaining things.

I look back and see now because it has spiritually refined me. We have to experience evil in order to know God.

False, even though we are all born atheists, far to many children accept the gods before experiencing any real 'evil'.

I now know why Jesus said, "Father, why have you forsaken Me?"

Oh did he now?
Traditionally, the brief sayings have been called "words". They are gathered from the four Canonical Gospels.[1][2] Three of the sayings appear only in the Gospel of Luke and three only in the Gospel of John. The other saying appears both in the Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Mark.[3] In Matthew and Mark, Jesus cries out to God. In Luke, he forgives his killers, reassures the penitent thief, and commends his spirit to the Father. In John, he speaks to his mother, says he thirsts, and declares the end of his earthly life.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayings_o ... _the_cross

What did you do?

Ouija boards and Dungeons and Dragons for a couple. I was really hoping there would be something to them (Ouija boards), but there isn't from my experiences. Nothing.

You have failed so far to show that you are skeptical. You point to the gods, devils, demons, angels and extraterrestrials for explanations and you think I'm going to believe your claim that you are skeptical? Actions speak louder than words.

Haven't I? Is not believing in some parts of the Bible mean that I'm not skeptical about it? If I wasn't, I believed everything in it.

The most gullible person on the planet could point to something that they are skeptical about. Take a young earth creationist for example. They are willing to believe claims that have been shown to be wrong. They naturally will be skeptical about dating methods, DNA, retro viruses and such, but a god creating the world about 10,000 years ago is good stuff.

I'm special because I'm me, just like you are also special.
However, your strawman has not been said here. In fact, I have simply asked for some evidence that would point to the supernatural. You have none, so you pretend I have asked for evidence that I have not asked for. This is underhanded IMO.

If we are both special, then it negates the word special. If everyone is special, then it's the norm, not the exception.

Not if they are special for their own differing reasons, but this is not important to the debate.

Did you ask me to prove the supernatural?

Yes - Cut/Paste: In fact, I have simply asked for some evidence that would point to the supernatural.

No, you wanted a sign from God that is supernatural.

As shown above, you are mistaken.

You did ask for evidence so what do you mean I pretended you asked for evidence that you did not ask for?

I only asked for evidence that would point to the supernatural (as shown above), not all the things you suggested I was asking for many posts ago.

Have you done your research into the existence of aliens? Or don't you think you need to study it like religious people ought to study different theories about how man got here?

Yes. Now what claims about aliens have I made that you would like me to provide evidence for?

Not sure. I have many people corresponding with me so can you refresh me?

I'm not aware of making claims about aliens, thus it was confusing that you asked me if I have done my research.

If you are a non believer then obviously you were never spirit filled. You thought you were.

You are correct! I never was! We agree! Woohoo!
You are now where I once was, you think you are spirit filled just like I once did. In truth, it seems that neither of us were/are at this time.
Remember one thing though, I am open to being shown that there is a spiritual realm.

We can agree to disagree here.

I have been where you are though. We can agree to disagree, but I am better versed at being a believer that would have died for their god and being skeptical of the gods.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1063 by Clownboat]

How much actual work have you put in? More than a Google search? Again, I bring you back to my property in AZ.

Clownboat, how could you do this to me? You sold the property to me a few days ago, remember? I'm there right now, and I'm looooving it!
Hang on a sec (takes a short walk)...uhh, mate?

Where's the water? I thought you said it was ocean front? Is this false advertising?