Is the Resurrurredction really a historical fact, or not?

[polonius]

In Paul’s oldest and first epistle, written in 51-52 AD, he states without qualification that:

“Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,* will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.g17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together* with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.� 1 Thes 4:15-17

But it didn’t happen. Thus we must conclude that either Paul or the Lord were incorrect.

How much else of what Paul told us is also incorrect?

Recall, it was Paul who reported the Resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 written about 53-57 AD.

Was his story historically correct (did it actually happen) or is it just a story that was used by and embellished by the writers of the New Testament?

Since the basis of Christian belief is the historical fact of the Resurrection, let’s examine the evidence and see if the Resurrection really happened or can an analysis of the story show that it is improbable if not impossible.

Opinions?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1084 by Claire Evans]

am not only the wiser to Catholicism. Anyone who does the research can see it. You think John Paul 2 exuded goodness? Like this goodness?

All this shows me that you have not done the slightest iota of research as to the upside down cross. I would have told you about this earlier, but I was waiting to see if you'd mention it. Since you haven't as of yet...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_St._Peter

First, you may feel insulted at my accusation of not doing research, but I said that for a reason. How does it feel for someone else to presume they know what you have and have not done?

Second, the upside down cross is not a Satanic symbol. It was, at first, a symbol of St. Peter, who according to tradition was crucified upside down because he felt he wasn't worthy to be crucified rightside up like Jesus was.
The upside down cross became regarded as a symbol of Satan from anti Christian movements and anti-authoritarian groups. In fact, my hypothetical Christian self would be wondering whether or not you yourself are Christian, in that you are treating one of Christianity's oldest symbols as the emblem of her enemy. Just to head off any accusation that it is a strictly Catholic symbol (and hence of Satan)...check the Wikipedia page again. It shows a photo of a Lutheran church with the upside down cross.
Why is it you believe the upside down cross to be a symbol of Satan?

Do you not know how evil works?

Perhaps more than yourself, having lived through much evil in my childhood.

He comes as an angel of light. The Anti-Christ will preach things like peace, goodness, so that people will be known the wiser to what he does and will do.

Yup, that's the standard Christian description of Jesus all right. Heck, the Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus to be the angel Michael.

[marco]

Do you not know how evil works? He comes as an angel of light. The Anti-Christ will preach things like peace, goodness, so that people will be known the wiser to what he does and will do.

The difference between our education seems to be that as a Catholic I was instructed in how GOOD works: we spoke of the corporal works of mercy; we were encouraged to feed the hungry and the poor; we were instructed in the Eight Beatitudes; and we were simply told to avoid anything to do with Satan.

Your education seems to have involved learning all about "how evil works".

I guess I missed out an a lot, then. We called our education Christian, by the way. What was yours?

[Claire Evans]

Weren't you gullible for believing in the Holy Spirit, yes?

I was indoctrinated as a child. I was young and impressionable and my Mommy was the main source.

Did she shove it down your throat?

You claim this is a debate site, which it is, but where is your evidence that you can speak in tongues?

As a born again, spirit filled, drunk in the Holy Ghost Christian of 2 decades, you're just going to have to trust me.
Have you seen me make untrustworthy claims or odd claims here that would make you question my reliability?

You are just going to have to trust me when I say Jesus is the Son of God. Drunk is an offensive word for having been filled with the Holy Spirit. Doesn't making a claim that you can speak in tongues make you unreliable? That's an odd claim.

Why do you continue to show poor reading comprehension? I believed in Satan, Angels and demons for 2 decades.
How many times must I and others tell you that we were true believers? I wanted to keep my beliefs, but perhaps I'm just not as gullible as others, or perhaps there is another mechanism at play. You tell me.

Maybe you were true believers in that you really believed God and Satan existed but were not sure. In the context of the Bible, true believers refer to disciples of Jesus who have no doubt He is the Son of God.

Look at you! You will do and say anything to keep feeling special about your religious beliefs. You invoke devils and aliens and you convince yourself that you know what must have happened as for all of us losing our beliefs.
I know you by your fruit.

They have their proof.

Either learn what the word means, retract your statement or supply this proof.

I will supply my proof when you prove that you can speak in tongues.

If I was so gullible, why do I not subscribe to the whole of mainstream Christianity? A gullible person would accept everything they are told.

You are even confused about what gullible means. Gullible people are easily persuaded. Gullible people do not believe everything they are told. More war with language in order to feel like you have a point to make?

Then why did you say I didn't know what gullible was when I said maybe you were true believers but weren't sure? Now you say that gullible people do not believe everything they are told.

And you went with demons, angels, aliens and devils as the logical explanation? Why? What evidence made you believe such things? I was indoctrinated to believe in them, but when I realized that they could not be shown to be anything more than make believe, I started questioning them as answers. What's your excuse?

When you have experienced these things for yourself, then you know.

I have experience make believe for myself. This I know.

Then why are my claims of the Holy Spirit false but yours automatically are true?

Why should I believe in devils without any proof they exist?

You shouldn't. You should examine everything carefully and hold on to that which is good. How have you examined devils?

By experiencing it myself. I have seen apparitions, things just appearing before my eyes, night terrors, etc.

A logical thought that there must be a source for all that is evil. Evil that is not necessary for human evolution.

You're going to need to reform this statement. Not sure what you are driving at.

Well, if it is inane to believe Satan is the source of evil, then where did it come from? A primordial soup?

Yes, you asked me what my excuse for believing in these things.

Still waiting. What is your excuse for all the un-evidenced things you believe in? Everything from angels, demons, devils, aliens to the Catholic church being satanic. Who knows what else you are willing to believe?

Why do you automatically dismiss aliens? If you did your research into the Catholic Church, you would know it is Satanic.

But I do believe in aliens and Bigfoot as I said which Christianity most certainly does not support. Ironic considering references to aliens feature in the OT. I don't think all religious claims are devoid of some truth.

There is nothing ironic about ancient, ignorant man believing in aliens. Even to this day people make claims about aliens. Unfortunately, a claim being made is all that some people need in order to believe.

Ironic in that many Christians don't believe in aliens, yet it is in their own Bible. They like to call them "fallen angels".

The one making the action happen! Me Claire, I'm doing it, I'm in control. I no longer believe that it is some unknown language that only a god can understand or whatever you wish to offer as an explanation.
Seriously, are angels and demons better answers for sounds coming out of my mouth than me making the noises?!? You claim your family is not crazy, so why are angels and demons a better explanation?

Wait a second. Do you believe that it is humanly possible to speak in languages one does not understand? How does that happen?

Yes, you can speak a language you don't understand (repeat after me for example). You cannot understand a language you don't understand though.

I mean if you have never heard of the language before. As speaking it fluently when you only know the odd word.

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 1057 by Claire Evans]

You put in brackets "without evidence". You can truly believe knowing God yet not see what He is doing. It is trusting that whether God leads us is for our benefit even though we may not see it.

I did that to translate what you said into terms that I understand. I can trust someone I have already been convinced exists. It is impossible for me to 'trust' a being I am not convinced exists. I trust my sisters when I hear from their mother that they are practicing their dancing - that is because I have interacted with the sisters, I know that they exist.
In my mind, I separate seeing, believing and trusting into separate categories. I will never mix the three.

But you are assuming that no one can know the existence of God and thus can't trust Him.

No, just because there is devil worship from the Vatican in Catholicism, doesn't mean the average Catholic is a devil worshiper. They are just none of the wiser.

So what? Even if what you say is true, there are groups within the Roman Catholic denomination who do not in fact worship Jesus and in fact worship Satan, so what? Am I supposed to care if a high ranking Mormon in fact secretly disbelieves the claims made about Joseph Smith and instead believes Islam?

Why would there be devil worship in the RCC? We are arguing about devil worship in the RCC, not what the average Catholic does.

Weren't you talking hypothetically? I am saying this is what the Bible claims.

The Bible is a contradictory text/collection of texts. If I wanted to, I could put my hands on any number of verses that say different to what you claim.

Sometimes what may appear contradictory, may actually not be when broken down.

Specials is someone who is more important than the rest.

Says the person who apparently has the evidence required for belief in God and mocks ex Christians who ask why they don't have it as well.

Please look at the definition of mock:

"...tease or laugh at in a scornful or contemptuous manner."

I do not recall doing that. If I claimed I was the only one who knew God, then I'd think I'm special. Yet I do not espouse that. Anyone can have this proof.

I did not mock you. It is a fact that if believe you should get favours from God

Where have I said I asked for favours from God? I have pointed out to you numerous times that I never asked for anything selfish. I prayed for guidance, for help, often until I cried (yeah yeah, I know, you don't want me to talk about this again). I didn't pray for eternal life, for riches, for bullies to be removed or anything like that. I prayed for God to use me as his tool.
Basically, in a nutshell, I was as unselfish in my prayers as it is possible to be.

Did you not what signs from God as in a little miracle to make you believe?

Because I have humility. I don't demand miracles.

Neither did I. I just prayed for guidance, to be told what to do. No response.

You wrote in post 938:

Quote:
It's just that you think it should take the form of a miracle.

It would have to, by default, so that I would be able to differentiate it from a hallucination, sudden onset of madness, or my imagination.
Or are you saying that when God 'communicates', us humans are just not to differentiate it from those three things?

Why won't you speculate on what form they may take? If you won't speculate, how can you expand your horizon?

Because I don't have knowledge of their possible environments. I'm not versed in planetology (if there even is such a field of science, I see my spellchecker is marking that word in red). If I was to speculate on what forms life may take on other planets without having knowledge of their environment(s), my speculations would be wild guesses.
Just the same as a possible supernatural realm. I have no knowledge of a supernatural realm, (if it even exists) so therefore I do not posit what it is like or who or what lives there.

Examine the claims of people. Google, "US government knows about aliens" or something. Just start somewhere.

bad analogy. The problem with all of you is that none of you have ever considered that you guys may be the problem

We have, and we know it's not us. All of us have said we were as good as good can be as children. I know for a fact I was good. I went to school, did my homework, prayed to God, made sure to help people, the whole she-bang.
If you want to convince us that there was some failing in us, then the onus is on you to prove that claim (which obviously you cannot do).

I did and I said it because you wanted special treatment in the form of a miracle. Doing good works and saying one does things for God does not necessarily make it so.

It's God's fault so I'm not surprised you do not know Him.

You're the one giving us the equivalent of a phone number, and when we 'dial' it, there's no answer. In fact, there's no sign that the number is 'real', that it actually is a number that is in use.
It would be one thing if, when I pray/dial, I find out that there is in fact someone or something on the other end, but that they won't respond to me. That at least would indicate yes there is something there.

You can perceive it as no answer but don't know how to interpret it.

Go on. Try the following number. 085-1432-14583-13901. I typed those numbers randomly. I tried it just now myself, and my phone says the number is not recognised, to check the number and try again.

Also are you going to respond about your earlier claim that God is not logical?

So when is the supernatural logical? Is it logical for something to defy the laws of nature?

synonyms: paranormal, psychic, magic, magical, occult, mystic, mystical, miraculous, superhuman, supernormal, hypernormal, extramundane; inexplicable, uncanny, unaccountable, unbelievable, non-rational, weird, mysterious, arcane

And as we know God is claimed to be a supernatural being.

[rikuoamero]

I'm bowing out of this thread, or at the very least out of my conversation with Claire. C.E. maintains that God is non-rational, illogical, etc, which to me basically means that she believes in something that cannot be understood or even proven to be real (other than to herself of course).
I cannot believe something that is non-rational, that is illogical.

[marco]

We are arguing about devil worship in the RCC, not what the average Catholic does.

This is your own fabrication. Have you SEEN someone in the RC Church worshipping Satan? Or do you just listen to rumours?

Is it possible that Satan is able to persuade people that good is bad? Or does Satan not possess that level of intelligence?

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 1059 by Claire Evans]

Once I considered suicide, I was delivered.

Did you actually move to go through with it? I ask this because I did. I was a moment away from slashing my wrists with a sharp blade, and yet, no god did anything.
Also, ask yourself why God would apparently be playing games with you? He'd let you get so bad that you're strongly considering suicide, and only then does he come back.

If that were a human boyfriend, I'd call that boyfriend abusive. He gets you emotionally attached to him, leaves you, watches while you suffer and then only steps back into the room once you're at the precipice of ending your life.

I know you want to terminate the discussion with me so you can just read this if you want. I didn't try because I was afraid that I would jump from the frying pan into the fire.

You can argue that God played games with Jesus. Jesus went through agony in the Garden of Gethsemane and then God gave Him peace to allow Himself to be arrested. Sometimes in life we need to go through bad things that will refine our faith.

We have to experience evil in order to know God.

Implying of course that those of us who do not know your god have not experienced evil. I grew up in a VERY tormented household. Did I mention that at least two of my sisters were raped by our father? That's just one of the things that went on with my family.
And yet (looks around)...no God.

Sorry this happened. However, did you know that Satan existed? I know that one can't just expect answers from God immediately or deliverance even. God treated Jesus no differently to how He treats us today.

Belief without proof of something's existence is different. That doesn't dove tail with trust.

Exactly! And yet, you have said to us to pray, said to us to trust God, ALL without the proof that God's existence.

In the context of the Bible, trust and belief are the same just to clarify. In your case, you must believe.

Is not believing in some parts of the Bible mean that I'm not skeptical about it?

Not just the Bible. You're far too quick to believe in practically every outlandish claim there is, such as Bigfoot, UFOs and whatnot. You give us links to people who say they have "cosmic top clearance" (which isn't a clearance that actually exists), who make all sorts of various claims about the US government supposedly being in contact with aliens, and yet, do not provide evidence.

I'm supposed to give you evidence of UFO's and the like? The point of giving you those links was to make you think. To start doing research on your own.

Did you ask me to prove the supernatural? No, you wanted a sign from God that is supernatural.

Which would drumroll please! Prove the supernatural!

Over the Internet??

[Claire Evans]

Bad analogy. The problem with all of you is that none of you have ever considered that you guys may be the problem why you could never reach God. It's God's fault so I'm not surprised you do not know Him.

This is beyond ridiculous.

I for decades felt that I had a relationship with a god (the Christian one). I learned about evolution and global flood scenarios as I got older from sources that were not my church, nor my Christian school. This caused me to question this relationship with a god claim I was so proud to make.
"I don't have a religion, I have a relationship!" I was special wasn't I?

Did you consider that the theory of evolution is not all that is made out to be? Why did I learn about various global flood scenarios and not lose my faith?

Countless tear filled prayers where I asked god to use me as he will and to make himself real in my life went unanswered. Me, not being insane at some point had to stop asking because the lack of a reply was consistent 100% of the time.

I was a willing servant. I reject your ego that makes you think that you knew me and what I went through. Your ignorance in this matter is staggering, yet your ego lets you continue to think you have all the answers.

Person A: "I'm so right and their explanations go against my claims. Therefore I can know (without actually knowing) what really happened with them which is basically whatever it takes to keep my claims as true, because I'm so right".

Pride comes before a fall.

It happened to me as I described above. It hurt very much, and I couldn't understand it for a while. God appeared to betray me. Not that I noticed it at first.

It happens, I believe, to nearly every person who has had an authentic experience with the Holy Spirit. God hides His face—suddenly without notice. No apology. Just silence. The explanation comes (usually) much, much later."

There are various questions that I don't believe you considered when saying it is God's fault, hypothetically in your case, and nothing to do with you.

Have you considered that you misinterpreted God's answers or saw a lack of response immediately as never answering?

Yes, you are right. I do not know your personal circumstances but I ask with every person: what kind of response were you looking for? In what form?

Just consider this to see if this rings true to you or not:


"Oswald Chambers once asked a provoking question: "Am I close enough to God to feel secure when He is silent?" In other words, must I have constant two-way communication with God to feel approved and loved by Him? We must develop a maturity that does not panic "between the times"—to use a helpful phrase from Richard Bewes. In season is a time of refreshing when God clearly manifests Himself. Out of season is when He seems to hide His face from us, those times when He is silent.

God wants us to learn as much from His silence as we learn from His absence. For example, often we learn more about ourselves when God hides Himself than in times of conscious blessing. His silence is like taking an examination in which we must demonstrate how much we have learned about His "ways."

An intimate, unique experience of some kind with God is important for each of us to have. It can be the best thing that can happen to us—but it can also be dangerous. After such an experience we can express a spiritual arrogance and pride that exalt us, in our own eyes, above other "less special" believers. If that happens, perhaps the only thing that can bring us back to a humble awareness of our spiritual position is for God Himself to desert us momentarily.

People who suppose they have this sort of relationship with God lack in both teachability and accountability. They sometimes think they are spiritually superior to all who try to help them. The only thing that will possibly help them is for God Himself to "stay behind" while they carry on in their presumption.

http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/1524-s ... -is-silent


Here is another thought:

"Has God trusted you with His silence— a silence that has great meaning? God’s silences are actually His answers. Just think of those days of absolute silence in the home at Bethany! Is there anything comparable to those days in your life? Can God trust you like that, or are you still asking Him for a visible answer? God will give you the very blessings you ask if you refuse to go any further without them, but His silence is the sign that He is bringing you into an even more wonderful understanding of Himself. Are you mourning before God because you have not had an audible response? When you cannot hear God, you will find that He has trusted you in the most intimate way possible— with absolute silence, not a silence of despair, but one of pleasure, because He saw that you could withstand an even bigger revelation. If God has given you a silence, then praise Him— He is bringing you into the mainstream of His purposes. The actual evidence of the answer in time is simply a matter of God’s sovereignty. Time is nothing to God. For a while you may have said, “I asked God to give me bread, but He gave me a stone instead� (see Matthew 7:9). He did not give you a stone, and today you find that He gave you the “bread of life� (John 6:35).

A wonderful thing about God’s silence is that His stillness is contagious— it gets into you, causing you to become perfectly confident so that you can honestly say, “I know that God has heard me.� His silence is the very proof that He has. As long as you have the idea that God will always bless you in answer to prayer, He will do it, but He will never give you the grace of His silence. If Jesus Christ is bringing you into the understanding that prayer is for the glorifying of His Father, then He will give you the first sign of His intimacy— silence."

I think you gave up on God too soon.

https://utmost.org/god%E2%80%99s-silenc ... then-what/

[Claire Evans]

That's what I said. God would not favour a gullible person over a skeptic.

Yet, according to you he does it seems. You are willing to believe some god claims while you reject others, and all without any evidence.

Not empirical evidence, but personal evidence which cannot be explained.

Personal evidence? I personally verify that I have ocean front property for sale in Arizona that I will sell to you for a steal. You have once again personally heard this from me which is more than the gods do.
Is personal evidence actually relevant like you pretend? Or would you require more before making this purchase?

If I had personal evidence that the OT was infallible, why would I doubt it?

Easy one. Human error. It's a real thing, no matter how egotistical some people are. Being able to assure yourself (generic) that your claims are true is not assurance that the claims actually are true.
You now have personal evidence that I have ocean front property in AZ. Now answer your own question and explain why you doubt it.

The OT, with research, is obviously deceptive. That doesn't need any personal proof of that. I general, it is right that believing in claims does not automatically make it true. As for personal evidence of ocean front property in Arizona, it is not in the same context as it is when it comes to spirituality. I can come over and have a look for myself to see if you are telling the truth or not.

I like to know that my beliefs are true because I understand that there are false beliefs out there. I'm not gullible enough now that I am a grown man to just accept fantastic claims without any supporting evidence.
It must be fine for you in some cases, yet not in others. If I'm wrong, are you interested in my ocean front property in Arizona? I'll part with it for a steal! You don't need to see it I'm sure and I can arrange a remote closing.
No!?!? You want to be sure about your purchase first!?!? What if I got a really, really old person to corroborate my claim? Would that help?

You are comparing earthly things to the supernatural. It doesn't make for a good analogy. What we can do is to agree to disagree.

Actually, I am demonstrating that you are inconsistent. You want evidence for my ocean front property in AZ, but when it comes to ancient men making claims about the Bible god and only the Bible god, you are more than happy to believe without evidence.

You are assuming I don't have personal evidence.

You aren't me so how can you know for sure I don't know if my God is real?

The gods haven't been shown to interact with our reality, therefore, you cannot know that a god or gods exists. What you can do is employ faith, however, we know that faith leads to false beliefs, so faith as an avenue to claim knowing something is not reliable. All this is known without the need for me to know you.

Really? Consider this:

http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicunder.html

Even people in the military believe that these gods, or aliens, walk among us.

[I think you need to stick with reputable sites. You display a willingness to believe things without reason.
How many of these alien tunnels have you seen for yourself? How much actual work have you put in? More than a Google search? Again, I bring you back to my property in AZ.

What would you consider as a reputable site?

I do have a copy of the FBI report on aliens:

https://vault.fbi.gov/UFO/UFO%20Part%201%20of%2016/view

God to page 22

https://vault.fbi.gov/UFO/UFO%20Part%201%20of%2016/view

Part of the disks carry crews, others are under remote control.
Their mission is peaceful, the visitors contemplate settling on this planet.
These visitors are human-like but much larger in size.
They are not excarnate Earth people, but come from their own world
The disks posses some type of radiant energy.
They do not come from any “planet� as we use the word, but from an etheric planet which interpenetrates with our own and is not perceptible to us.
The bodies of the visitors, and the craft also, automatically materialize on entering the vibratory rate of our dense matter.
They re-enter the etheric at will, and so simply disappear from our vision, without trace.
The region they come from is NOT the astral plane, but corresponds to the Lakas or Talas. Students of esoteric matters will understand these terms.

Now if aliens interact with humans today, why not back then with Moses?

Show me actual evidence of aliens. I understand that humans make all sorts of claims. I'm not interested in claims, give me something real. Let's be honest, you 'could' be some crazy crack pot.

Is the FBI a bunch of crack pots?

Not true. Gods provide answers to unknown questions. Having a belief that you know what will happen to you when you die is a reason to believe in the gods without proof of the gods. Being convinced by your parents that there is a hell that you could spend eternity burning in is yet another.

Nobody truly knows everything about what will happen when they die. Near Death Experiences correspond a lot with what I believe yet that is another topic altogether. However, I have experienced some spiritual hell that was so bad, I was considering suicide. It was demonic in nature.

Nice dodge.
You said: There would be no reason for me to believe anything unless I had the proof God exists that is provable to me.
I provided other reasons and you failed to acknowledge them, much less address them.

I'm not sure how this is a dodge. For me to say I know everything about what happens after death would be asinine. You assume God is just going to tell us exactly how it is? What we do know are the basics and that is Jesus will judge the living and the dead and those who love Him and repent will be with Him in eternity.

When I was growing up, my mother never brought up the concept of hell. She never told me what it was like therefore there was no indoctrination.

I assume this is rhetorical, so tell me, why do you?

I don't believe anything automatically.

Obviously not 'anything' automatically, but let's be honest, you believe in a lot of things that are make believe IMO for no other reason then it helps you to make sense of your favorite religion. When it comes to other religions, you do not use the same approach, therefore I must consider your bias when you make these odd claims, many of which go directly what I witnessed as a previous believer.

I do consider other religions. I believe it is based on a thread of truth. I do believe Allah existed. No one told me to believe this and my church would freak out if they knew this.

No one goes to hell for finite crimes. They go to hell for crimes they are not repentant for. Unless you think it is reasonable to expect every unrepentant criminal to get off scot free.

What I expect is for you to provide a reason as to why any of the hell claims are trustworthy. I know you believe them, but why should anyone else. Is this a case of a god preferring the gullible? If not, then provide an actual reason. If you cannot come up with one, you could always use it as a tool to threaten. Works great on children anyway.

Because, as I have said, I have experienced a tiny fraction of it myself.

Again, says the alien, devil, angel and demon believing person. It's no suprise that you use them as examples to make sense of things you are going through.

Some may analyze what they could do better or different when going through tough times. Others will offer angels and demons as explanations for it. Either way, gods, angels, demons, devils and aliens cannot ever be shown to ever be an actual cause. An explanation yes, but a cause... no.

Have you studied the paranormal?

I say this because I felt some of God's presence withdrawn 10 years ago and in came demonic torment.

I'm sorry you went through a tough time, but I'm not surprised in the slightest to hear you blame demons for the torment. It seems to be your go to after all.

I have seen apparitions of demons and figures before in my life so I didn't just make this up.

I didn't want to live anymore. I prayed and nothing happened.

[I noticed this theme as well.

No response is part of God's answer I realized. Jesus said to the Lord, "Father, why have you forsaken Me?"

I couldn't understand why God didn't help me. Did He enjoy seeing me suffer? It was then that I almost lost my faith.

with blaming demons, gods and such for your problems. These seem to be your go to entities for explanations even though you have no actual evidence for their existence. But if it works for you...

No evidence for you but most certainly for me.

Once I considered suicide, I was delivered. Why did God wait so long?

Please show me that a god was involved. I already know these are your go to's for explaining things.

As I said, how can I do that?

I look back and see now because it has spiritually refined me. We have to experience evil in order to know God.

False, even though we are all born atheists, far to many children accept the gods before experiencing any real 'evil'.

That is because they are told to accept gods. It doesn't mean acceptance as in establishing a relationship with God.

I now know why Jesus said, "Father, why have you forsaken Me?"

Oh did he now?
Traditionally, the brief sayings have been called "words". They are gathered from the four Canonical Gospels.[1][2] Three of the sayings appear only in the Gospel of Luke and three only in the Gospel of John. The other saying appears both in the Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Mark.[3] In Matthew and Mark, Jesus cries out to God. In Luke, he forgives his killers, reassures the penitent thief, and commends his spirit to the Father. In John, he speaks to his mother, says he thirsts, and declares the end of his earthly life.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayings_o ... _the_cross

The various gospels were written for different audiences. Just because some gospels omit some things, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

What did you do?

Ouija boards and Dungeons and Dragons for a couple. I was really hoping there would be something to them (Ouija boards), but there isn't from my experiences. Nothing.

You know, many times people play with ouija boards and nothing happens yet actually get attachments unbeknownst to them. In fact, demonic attachment can result in things that sometimes can resemble mental illness.

1. Look for changes in personality. This is usually seen when the person is affable and suddenly becomes extremely quiet.

2. Someone who is normally very active suddenly becomes isolated.

3. Look for changes in sleep patterns.

4. Look for sudden weight loss or gain.

5. Look for changes in attitude and behavior, usually becoming hostile.

6. Someone who begins cursing a lot when that is out of character for them.

7. Notice if they suddenly have an aversion to religious objects. They may be a person who normally goes to Church but suddenly despises the thought.

8. Look for evidence of self-mutilation.

9. Look for changes in the way the person dresses.

10. Observe their personal hygiene and look for changes.

11. Look for evidence of occult materials in the room.

12. Look for destructiveness on the part of a person, especially if that destruction is of religious objects.

13. They may become abusive and threatening for no reason.

14. They may become violent. They often attempt to hurt animals.

15. The person may experience severe nightmares or night terrors.

16. They may perform acts of humiliation, such as urinating on themselves, etc.

17. They may be sexually pre-occupied. Exposing themselves to others.

18. Take note of what appears to be a different personality or multiple personalities.

19. Look for unusual changes in diet. Foods that were once favorites may now be repulsive to the person. They may eat foods that they once detested or may quit eating completely.

20. Take note if they seem to have blackouts in their memory.

Did you have any significant changes after playing with the ouija board? Did bad circumstances in your life manifest?

http://www.texasghostandspirit.com/para ... -symptoms/

As for Dungeons and Dragons, I played Doom 2 when I was 12 and I payed for it. I didn't realize it was Satanic and I got a demonic attachment. Early one (about 1:00am) morning I woke up to see all sorts of demonic imagery. My mother came to comfort me and she shape shifted. We had to pray for hours. I may be vulnerable for the rest of my life. I studied at a Varsity which was known to be haunted. I would be the only one in the class to get nose bleeds. I never got them before Varsity and never afterwards. Nose bleeds are a sign of a demonic presence. I believe I got another attachment and that is when I got the night terrors that almost broke me. Devils will try and find any avenue to get to a person.

You have failed so far to show that you are skeptical. You point to the gods, devils, demons, angels and extraterrestrials for explanations and you think I'm going to believe your claim that you are skeptical? Actions speak louder than words.

Haven't I? Is not believing in some parts of the Bible mean that I'm not skeptical about it? If I wasn't, I believed everything in it.

The most gullible person on the planet could point to something that they are skeptical about. Take a young earth creationist for example. They are willing to believe claims that have been shown to be wrong. They naturally will be skeptical about dating methods, DNA, retro viruses and such, but a god creating the world about 10,000 years ago is good stuff.

I mean being skeptical of something when it can be proven to be wrong.

I'm special because I'm me, just like you are also special.
However, your strawman has not been said here. In fact, I have simply asked for some evidence that would point to the supernatural. You have none, so you pretend I have asked for evidence that I have not asked for. This is underhanded IMO.

If we are both special, then it negates the word special. If everyone is special, then it's the norm, not the exception.

Not if they are special for their own differing reasons, but this is not important to the debate.

Considering oneself is special opens the door to arrogance.

Did you ask me to prove the supernatural?

[Yes - Cut/Paste: In fact, I have simply asked for some evidence that would point to the supernatural.

No, you wanted a sign from God that is supernatural.

As shown above, you are mistaken.

I suggest you do research into all paranormal claims. You will be amazed at what you can find and how it can convince you. You didn't know about the FBI report on aliens. So what else could you learn that can counter your beliefs these things aren't real?

Have you done your research into the existence of aliens? Or don't you think you need to study it like religious people ought to study different theories about how man got here?

Yes. Now what claims about aliens have I made that you would like me to provide evidence for?

Not sure. I have many people corresponding with me so can you refresh me?

[I'm not aware of making claims about aliens, thus it was confusing that you asked me if I have done my research.

As I said, I am getting confused with who is saying what so bear with me.

If you are a non believer then obviously you were never spirit filled. You thought you were.

You are correct! I never was! We agree! Woohoo!
You are now where I once was, you think you are spirit filled just like I once did. In truth, it seems that neither of us were/are at this time.
Remember one thing though, I am open to being shown that there is a spiritual realm.

We can agree to disagree here.

I have been where you are though. We can agree to disagree, but I am better versed at being a believer that would have died for their god and being skeptical of the gods.

You may want to reconsider that.

[Claire Evans]

I don't know why people cannot appreciate that accepting the Holy Spirit means we can be taught as illustrated in the Bible.

I can accept inspiration comes from a variety of sources. It is not clear to me why the Holy Spirit should be given credit for, say, Einstein's ideas on relativity.




"Ruins of a 4000-year-old observatory discovered on a mountain in Macedonia reveal that the ancients tracked celestial movements from on high with remarkable precision. And in Peru, the descendants of the Incans continue an ancient pilgrimage tradition in order to commune with mountain spirits known as Apu. Could these gods have been extraterrestrials? Did they use remote mountain peaks to interact with early man? Might this explain why humans have been drawn to mountains for thousands of years."

I am not opposed to such propositions. I cannot possibly rule them out and they do go a little way towards explaining the odd structure of pyramids. But it is not clear to me why aliens would descend on mountains - from where? I grant that physical means of transportation across stellar distances are out of the question, and I know that science proposes other means of travelling great distances. If we are in our intellectual infancy, who is to say that beings don't exist who are like gods to us?

If these are your lines of possibility, I've no objections either way. I have an open mind. My only problem is with dogmatic assertions.[/quote]

Why do you assume that physical means of transportation across stellar distances is impossible? We don't know the technology they have. They can use wormholes maybe or interdimentional travel for all we know.

As for using mountains, it is apparently a meeting place between people and the gods. Like Yahweh and Moses. Also in mountains there are said to be underground bases where they dwell. Some are said to conduct human experiments there.