CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

[tigger2]

CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (emphasis added by me.)
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Athanasian Creed:

"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
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"Trinity, the Most Holy

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
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The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

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Challenges from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

(Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly described with the word one or its equivalent - alone, only, etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to Jesus is the Christ or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

YHWH is the Son, or YHWH is the Firstborn, or, YHWH is the Messiah (or Christ), or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that Jesus is YHWH (the only God according to scripture).
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Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in three distinct persons):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" " Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)

and,
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(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
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(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
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(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential knowledge of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God

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(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God. - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!

[Talishi]

[Replying to post 169 by Talishi]

Please quote the scripture you refer to that asserts your claim. The we begin to found out whether or not I am blind

I find it remarkable that Christians require atheists to post the scripture under discussion. It's like they don't even read the Bible or something.

Genesis 1:

[6] And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
[7] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
[16] And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
[17] And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

[B Bob]

[Replying to post 171 by Talishi]

In contrast to your scientific view, science itself has long ago discovered what thw "firmament" is; the scientific work for it is: atmoshphere

[Talishi]

[Replying to post 171 by Talishi]

In contrast to your scientific view, science itself has long ago discovered what thw "firmament" is; the scientific work for it is: atmoshphere

I see. So the air is sufficiently solid to be rolled up like a scroll (ala Revelations).

[B Bob]

[Replying to post 173 by Talishi]

You do understand the earth's atmosphere separates the two waters. It also acts like dome in keeping the waters of the sky from floating off into space, right?

Why hang your hat that the Bible is not true on something like this. The fact that it is not a solid surface such as glass or something else does not change the fact thes two waters are being solidly held, in place, separate from each other.

ala Revelation) Some things in the Bible are said as a figure of speech.

God also hung the moon and the stars, but I am quite sure, science cannot find the hooks and the surface on which they are hung. Should we argue the Bible is not true because we cannot find a hook or some type of device the sun and the moon are hanging by or the surface on which they hang?

[catnip]

[Replying to post 171 by Talishi]

In contrast to your scientific view, science itself has long ago discovered what thw "firmament" is; the scientific work for it is: atmoshphere

I see. So the air is sufficiently solid to be rolled up like a scroll (ala Revelations).

Seriously? Have you looked at the earth from space and seen the very thin layer of atmosphere around it? It is a layer, a series of layers, but very thin.

I am not a creationist by any means, but sometimes the Bible surprises me--they could not have known.

[B Bob]

[Replying to Talishi]

You appear to actually make my case in point; Most people study the scripture to prove what they already believe. You have grasped at scriptures in an effort to prove it is just a book that you don't believe in.

[Talishi]

[Replying to post 173 by Talishi]
You do understand the earth's atmosphere separates the two waters. It also acts like dome in keeping the waters of the sky from floating off into space, right?

Wrong. Only one inch of water can be suspended in the air as water vapor at a time. If it rains more than an inch, the wind is transporting fresh columns of water-saturated air over your location. What keeps the vapor and air from "floating off into space" is gravity. Escape velocity is seven miles per second. Air molecules average one mile per second at normal temperatures. Naturally they are playing bumper cars as well.

[B Bob]

[Replying to Talishi]

gravity is what keeps the atmosphere together

[B Bob]

[Replying to post 178 by B Bob]


Again, if your point is you don't believe the Bible is true or not authored by God or that there is no God. There is no reason to debate in this forum.

Maybe you should start your own thread on whether or not the Bible is just a book or if it is a book authored by God . . .

[B Bob]

[Replying to onewithhim]


I don't know if you will receive this post since you disparaged me to Monta in a previous post and said you officially put me in the "ignore" category. However, in consideration of these things, you have responded to my posts anyway.

I want you to know that I am not angry with you, nor do I worry about the things you said. There is a God in heaven that knows all things and He, alone, is my judge . . . and yours.

I don't believe it is me that has gotten under your skin. I believe it is the word of God that has rattled your cage.

Pleas allow me to respond to your PROFOUND statement about God.

QUOTE:The logos became flesh, became something God was not and cannot be, human.

MY RESPONSE: From a purely sensible and actually practical point of view, why would God declare He would make man in His own image and according to His likeness, then make a creature (man) that He, Himself was not like, nor could never be? Is God a liar? Your point says He is, because He declared and claimed He would and did something, you say, He cannot do. Namely. make a creature in His own image and according to His own likeness, because He (God) cannot be what He made to be LIKE HIM.

You have previously berated me for not responding to your posts (although, I explained that I was new at this and did not do it intentionally). Well . . . Let's focus on what you really meant when you siad God cannot be human " The God that said He would and did make man in His own image and likeness, made man in the image and likeness of a creature that HE, COULD NOT BE. (look at your quote, this is what it means). In other words, you are saying" God is a liar, and you tell the truth!

Are you comfortable with the reality of your statement? If not, fess up, that you messed up, and the God I know, will forgive you. (I know you don't believe God is liar, but I need you to understand your statement makes God out to be a liar). Therefore, it would be prudent to examine the scriptures to see what is true. Instead of searching the Scriptures to prove what you believe or what you have been taught is true. There is a bi difference between the approach to God's words.