How far does one go?

[Elijah John]

The Puritans of New England, and the Jehovah's Witnesses of today forbid the observance of Christmas, as being "of pagan origin".

To be consistent, hadn't one ought to rename the days of the week?

In English,

Sunday = Sun day.
Monday = Moon day.
Tuesday = Tiw's day.
Wednesday = Woden's day.
Thurday = Thor's day
Friday = Freya's day.
Saturday = Saturn day.

The English days of the week were all named after gods of the pagan Norse pantheon, with a few Greco-Roman planet names thrown in.

For debate, how far should a good Christian go to purge paganism from the culture?

Or should we all just "lighten up" and observe Christmas as well?

[marco]

To be consistent, hadn't one ought to rename the days of the week?

For debate, how far should a good Christian go to purge paganism from the culture?

Or should we all just "lighten up" and observe Christmas as well?

Consistency isn't necessarily a treasured commodity. No doubt Christmas Day is ignored to make the point that it is not specifically noted in the Bible and thus give the impression of right and righteousness. There is really no paganism in Christmas celebrations; rather the opposite, namely yearly recognition of the Nativity. Given the universal warmth it bestows on children, it is certain Jesus would wholeheartedly have approved. The innocence of Christmas carols and the joyful hymns that rise to God can hardly be displeasing to heaven. To remove a gift from the hands of a child because you are upholding some specific regulation is in fact the very attitude Christ condemned.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Well I don't know about anyone else but as Jehovah's Witnesses we have no problem saying a pagan word, or even using one to identify something or someone only participating in Pagan religious ceremonies.

To help you understand the difference between "speaking" and "celebrating" let's take the month of January. Named after the pagan god Janus. On the first of that month there are celebrations in many countries. I would probably decline from going to a party to celebrate the new year. Would I refuse to say the word "January"? or Type it in a discussion forum? No. Why? Because typing/speaking/writing in my diary or having the word on my calander is not for me a religious celebration of that thing or a compromising act of adoration.

I can't speak for the 17th century Puritans.

JW

[marco]

Because typing/speaking/writing in my diary or having the word on my calander is not for me a religious celebration of that thing or a compromising act of adoration.

And when people celebrate the Nativity of Christ they are NOT celebrating anything to do with paganism. They are no more guilty of celebrating a Pagan feast than you are when you accept January.

[JehovahsWitness]

Because typing/speaking/writing in my diary or having the word on my calander is not for me a religious celebration of that thing or a compromising act of adoration.

And when people celebrate the Nativity of Christ they are NOT celebrating anything to do with paganism. They are no more guilty of celebrating a Pagan feast than you are when you accept January.

Well not in their opinion granted. As long as they leave me to feel differently and accord me the respect of not obliging me to join them, then everyone's happy. It's all a question of respecting other people's religious sensibilities.

JW

[ttruscott]

Or should we all just "lighten up" and observe Christmas as well?

Thinking about Christmas and Santa: here we have due who apparently is omniscient who does magic things like flying around and delivering presents down chimneys he can't fit through. Ok so far...

Now the bad part...even though he knows if we have been good or bad, we will get a present if we say we have been good all year. All year!!!?? He rewards lying and gives coal to those who tell the truth. And no one thinks this is weird? The Secular Santa Christmas has no redeeming feature.

[tigger2]

Because typing/speaking/writing in my diary or having the word on my calander is not for me a religious celebration of that thing or a compromising act of adoration.

And when people celebrate the Nativity of Christ they are NOT celebrating anything to do with paganism. They are no more guilty of celebrating a Pagan feast than you are when you accept January.

The only thing reasonably certain about the coming of the Christ Child is that his birth did not take place in winter. .... In A. D. 350 Pope Julius I formally designated December 25 as Christmas. He chose that date because it coincided with important pagan festivals. These, in turn, were linked with the winter solstice [the shortest day of the year]. - How it Started, p. 54.

December 25 was already a major festival in the pagan Roman world, the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, or Birthday of the Unconquered Sun, a feast honoring the renewal of the sun at the winter solstice. Pagan celebrations on December 25 had included feasting, dancing, lighting bonfires, decorating homes with greens, and giving gifts. So when this became a Christian [?] festival, the [pagan] customs continued - p. 414, Vol. 4, Encyclopedia International, Grolier, Inc., 1966.

The Christian Book of Why, by Dr. John C. McCollister (Lutheran minister and university professor, graduate of Trinity Lutheran Seminary), Jonathan David Publishers, Inc., 1983, tells us on p. 205:

"Christians of the first century did not celebrate the festival honoring the birth of Jesus - for the same reason they honored no other birthday anniversary. It was the feeling at that time by ALL Christians that the celebration of all birthdays (even the Lords) was a custom of the PAGANS. In an effort to divorce themselves from ALL pagan practices, the early Christians refused to set aside a date marking Jesus' birth. As a result, the first celebration of Christmas by Christians did not take place until the fourth century." -

As late as 245 [A. D.] Origen (hom. viii. on Leviticus) repudiated the idea of keeping the birthday of Christ, as if he were a king Pharaoh [Gen. 4:19-22]. - Encyclopedia Britannica, 14th ed., p. 642, Vol. 5

The early Church in Rome had a particularly hard battle against two other great pagan festivals, the week-long Saturnalia, which began Dec. 17, and the Kalends, which greeted the New Year. The first festival was a time of licensed misrule, often presided over by a lord of merriment, not so much Santa as fat Saturn himself, the orgiast of eating, drinking and other kinds of naughtiness. It was during Kalends, when the year changed, however, that gifts were ritually exchanged, often tied to the boughs of greenery that decorated houses during the festivities.

The attitude of the early church toward all this indecent jollity was predictably frosty. Its fathers, notably the fulminating St. John Chrysostom, urged no compromise with heathen abominations. - Simon Schama, professor of history at Harvard University, in a feature article of the 24 Dec. 1991 issue of The New York Times.

CHRISTMAS TREES - Many countries claim the distinction of having launched the custom of erecting Christmas trees, but it may have begun independently in several parts of Europe. Ceremonial worship of trees in ancient pagan rites almost certainly led to the decoration of trees at the time of the winter solstice. German emigrants [coming to the U.S.] brought with them the custom of setting up trees in their houses at Christmas. - How It Started, pp. 52, 53.

It is believed that the custom is a survival of the tree worship of ancient German tribes. -- Tree worship was common in Scandinavian countries....

"When the pagans of Northern Europe became Christians [?], they made their sacred evergreen trees part of the Christian festival, and decorated the trees with gilded nuts, candles (a carry-over from sun worship), and apples to stand for the stars, moon, and sun. - pp. 1429, 1425, The World Book Encyclopedia, 1958 ed.

HOLLY - The Druids of prehistoric Britain revered the plant we know as holly. .... It was all but inevitable that the use of the semi - sacred plant should become linked with the Christian [?] celebration that supplanted the older pagan one. Many scholars even think that holly is an adaptation of an early form of the word holy. - How It Started, p. 56.
....................

What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? .... Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you ...' says the Lord Almighty. - 2 Cor. 6:16, 17, NIVSB. [NIVSB f.n.: agreement...between the temple of God and idols. There can be no reversion to or compromise with the idolatry they have forsaken for the gospel (cf. 1 Th. 1:9).]

[Talishi]

And when people celebrate the Nativity of Christ they are NOT celebrating anything to do with paganism. They are no more guilty of celebrating a Pagan feast than you are when you accept January.

Jeremiah 10:

[2] Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
[3] For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
[4] They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

Looks like God prefers atheists on this point.

[Elijah John]

Or should we all just "lighten up" and observe Christmas as well?

Thinking about Christmas and Santa: here we have due who apparently is omniscient who does magic things like flying around and delivering presents down chimneys he can't fit through. Ok so far...

Now the bad part...even though he knows if we have been good or bad, we will get a present if we say we have been good all year. All year!!!?? He rewards lying and gives coal to those who tell the truth. And no one thinks this is weird? The Secular Santa Christmas has no redeeming feature.

Firstly, to celebrate the birth of Christ at Christmas does not necessitate that anyone accepts the Santa myth.

Also, according to the Santa myth no one gets rewarded for lying or coal for telling the truth!

You seem to have the myth backward.

[marco]

December 25 was already a major festival in the pagan Roman world, the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, or Birthday of the Unconquered Sun, a feast honoring the renewal of the sun at the winter solstice.

It gets a mention. To raise it to major status is claiming more ground than your argument merits. Of course there were pagan festivals and when converting pagans to Christianity it would have been expedient to celebrate CHRISTIAN teaching at the time when people were in the habit of celebrating. God replaced idols.

Your points would have significance if people continued to worship trees . There is no question but that Jesus is commemorated and nothing else.