Is belief a choice?

[Justin108]

Christians tell me all the time that atheist deserve hell because they "chose" to reject god by not believing in him. They tell me that of I believe then I will be saved as though I can simply choose what I want to believe. How is belief a choice?

If I offered you $10 000 to believe that I was George Clooney, would you start choosing to believe I'm George Clooney?

[OnceConvinced]

Could you now make a decision to NOT believe the bible? How would you do that? After all you're convinced it's true right? How do you suddenly switch off your belief and go from convinced to no-longer convinced?

If for example Bible would say something that I don’t like, I could choose not to believe it. For example, if it would say that it is right to murder, I don’t think I would believe it. Or if I would want something that is against Bible teachings, I probably could decide not to believe it.

That's because you ALREADY believe murder is wrong. That belief is already there inside you. It's not something you just decided to believe one day. It's something you were taught and a value that was instilled in you from a very early age. Like all of us. Or most of us at least.

But come on. Don't think? But it's a simple matter of choice right? You can believe murder is ok just by deciding to believe it's ok.

So how about you just decide to believe murder is ok for one day? See if you really can convince yourself of that. Then go murder someone.

Wait... let's not make it a human. Because if you are right and belief is something you can choose, I don't want you murdering a human. How about just murdering a next door neighbour's dog?

If it's as simple as making a decision to believe, there should be no problem right?

Once again I go back to the example of leaping from a tall building. If you can simply choose to believe you can fly, then you should have no trouble jumping off the edge of a tall building flapping your arms.

However, I'm willing to bet you can't choose to believe that. I'm willing to bet that you will stand at the edge of that building, realize that gravity is going to cause you to plummet to your death, and no amount of trying to convince yourself is going to get you to leap off the edge of that building.

If belief is simply a matter of choice, then you should be able to leap... flap your arms and even as you plummet to your death you should still be able to continue to believe you can fly right to the moment of impact.

The thing is, as I have said, knowledge trumps belief. If you know something is true (like gravity), then no amount of choice is going to influence you to believe that you can fly. Not unless you really are deluded.

What a horrifying world we would live in if belief was simply a matter of choice. Whenever you got angry you could choose to believe that murder was ok and then go and commit murder. You could even choose to believe that you will get away with it.

[Willum]

Atheists not only deserve Hell, but prefer it!
Would you rather party in hell with a redeemed Hitler, or suffer in Hell with a disbelieving Gandhi?

Since we can't even be sure whose really running the universe, I know where I'd rather be.

[Talishi]

Atheist no only deserve Hell, but prefer it!
Would you rather party in hell with a redeemed Hitler, or suffer in Hell with a disbelieving Gandhi?

Mark Twain said go to heaven for the climate, and hell for the company. Sappho, Cleopatra, Boudicca, Marie Curie, Rosalind Franklin...

[Justin108]

If for example Bible would say something that I don’t like, I could choose not to believe it.

Oh ok. So if you decide you don't like the Holocaust, you're going to just choose to believe that it never happened?

[Bust Nak]

For example, if it would say that it is right to murder, I don’t think I would believe it.

Why not prove your point by choosing to believe that the Bible says it is right to murder, then choose to not believe in the Bible because it says it is right to murder?

Alternatively, choose to believe that it is absolutely right to murder, so you can then choose to disbelieve the Bible because it says you ought not murder.

[KingandPriest]

Atheist no only deserve Hell, but prefer it!
Would you rather party in hell with a redeemed Hitler, or suffer in Hell with a disbelieving Gandhi?

Mark Twain said go to heaven for the climate, and hell for the company. Sappho, Cleopatra, Boudicca, Marie Curie, Rosalind Franklin...

I was not aware that Mark Twain was considered an authority on spiritual matters.

You quote Mark Twain's words as authoritative of spiritual truths, but ridicule those who ascribe to the words of Jesus.

Interesting.

[Talishi]

Atheist no only deserve Hell, but prefer it!
Would you rather party in hell with a redeemed Hitler, or suffer in Hell with a disbelieving Gandhi?

Mark Twain said go to heaven for the climate, and hell for the company. Sappho, Cleopatra, Boudicca, Marie Curie, Rosalind Franklin...

I was not aware that Mark Twain was considered an authority on spiritual matters.

You quote Mark Twain's words as authoritative of spiritual truths, but ridicule those who ascribe to the words of Jesus.

Interesting.

You asked whether an atheist would rather party in heaven with a reformed bad person or suffer in hell with an atheistic good person, which means you consider me (an atheist) to be a spiritual authority, but when I supported my opinion with that of another atheist, you rejected that outsourced pundit as not spiritually authoritative.

[KingandPriest]

Atheist no only deserve Hell, but prefer it!
Would you rather party in hell with a redeemed Hitler, or suffer in Hell with a disbelieving Gandhi?

Mark Twain said go to heaven for the climate, and hell for the company. Sappho, Cleopatra, Boudicca, Marie Curie, Rosalind Franklin...

I was not aware that Mark Twain was considered an authority on spiritual matters.

You quote Mark Twain's words as authoritative of spiritual truths, but ridicule those who ascribe to the words of Jesus.

Interesting.

You asked whether an atheist would rather party in heaven with a reformed bad person or suffer in hell with an atheistic good person, which means you consider me (an atheist) to be a spiritual authority, but when I supported my opinion with that of another atheist, you rejected that outsourced pundit as not spiritually authoritative.

I did not. This prior statement came from Willum. I just pointed out the inconsistency with evaluation of spiritual statements.

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 116 by KingandPriest]

Is it really that interesting that some people find what Mark Twain says on spiritual matters more profound than what Jesus says? Christianity is pretty ingrained in "Western" culture and most are so familiar with it, to the degree such that what Jesus says just appear mundane.

How goes your attempt at choosing to believe 2+2=5, by the way?

[KingandPriest]

[Replying to post 87 by OnceConvinced]

http://www.ethics-based-on-science.com/ ... o=away.pdf

I do not have time to read all this. I read some of the highlighted parts though and the theme seemed to be that certain actions can determine changes in your feelings and what parts of the brain are activated. This in no way suggests that belief is a choice. Performing actions certainly is though.

Where in any of this is it even suggested that belief is a choice? From what I am reading there, your document shows the opposite.

I did not say belief is a choice. I stated and demonstrated that belief is a result of choices made by an individual. Decisions come together to form a belief. Choice A leads to Choice B. Choice B leads to Choice C. Over time, the accumulation of decisions is what we call a belief. Our decisions/choices inform and make up our beliefs. Does belief = choice? No. What I argue is that choice/decisions is the primary and main component of belief. Without choice, you will never arrive at belief. All choices we have made from birth inform and shape our beliefs.

You argue the contrary, that beliefs just occur. You also seem to imply that belief comes before a decision or choice. I have asked you to demonstrate this, but with the exception of your personal opinion, no corroborating evidence has been provided.

It’s quite fascinating that what we are seeing now in single-neuron recordings is not coding for what we see or do—sensory and motor coding—but for the processes involved in how we value and make choices. That’s an important advance in neuroscience. I also think it’s fascinating that, when it comes to decision making, behavior is very adaptive. You can really watch and see how your choice behavior adapts and changes from trial to trial, according to environment and task design, and such changes are reflected in the recorded activity of single neurons.

This is in no way even suggesting that belief is a choice. It is simply saying how our choices can be affected by our environment and how we are feeling. Nothing whatsoever about changing our beliefs. Just a change in our behaviour.

The term choice behavior is describing the choices a person makes. Our choices can be affected by our environment. It is because our choices can be affected by our environment, our beliefs (the result of an accumulation of choice) will also be affected by our environment. Since Choice A is affected by our environment, Choice B will also be affected, because Choice B is dependent on Choice A.

If I decide to go to a Subway for lunch (Choice A), the choice of what type of food I will purchase is dependent on the decision to go to Subway. I can also change my mind, and make a decision to go somewhere else for lunch. This change of mind, requires that I go back to Choice A and make a different decision. Subsequent decisions such as what to order and consume are dependent on choices I make. The belief that I will be satisfied after consuming lunch, is a dependent on the choices I make.

Since belief is dependent on choice, we can conclude that a person can make choices about what they believe. The key word is can. It is possible. Just because we don't use this ability often, does not mean we cannot.