How far does one go?

[Elijah John]

The Puritans of New England, and the Jehovah's Witnesses of today forbid the observance of Christmas, as being "of pagan origin".

To be consistent, hadn't one ought to rename the days of the week?

In English,

Sunday = Sun day.
Monday = Moon day.
Tuesday = Tiw's day.
Wednesday = Woden's day.
Thurday = Thor's day
Friday = Freya's day.
Saturday = Saturn day.

The English days of the week were all named after gods of the pagan Norse pantheon, with a few Greco-Roman planet names thrown in.

For debate, how far should a good Christian go to purge paganism from the culture?

Or should we all just "lighten up" and observe Christmas as well?

[2timothy316]

Christmas commercialism has given most nations that celebrate it an Achilles Heel. A day to make or break a company called Black Friday. It's called this because it determines if a company will be in the black or in the red in their financial books. A nations whole future financial outlook is based on that day.

Not correct. The day is called Black Friday because typically a company will run red ink until that day, when their accounts receivable finally exceed their accounts payable. But the day itself is not make-or-break as you indicate. it's more to do with its position in the year.

Please read...
https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-black-friday-3305710

From the article,
"The holiday shopping season is crucial for the economy..."

Not just Black Friday, the whole season, it starts on Black Friday is what I meant.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 32 by marco]

I didn't give an interpretation. I stated what was in the Bible as a commandment and what isn't concerning what to observe when it come to Jesus. If Jesus wanted us to celebrate his birth or death, that would have been the time to announce it. As far as when we should observe the Lord's Evening Meal, it taking place on the yearly Jewish Passover was no accident. It was all part of the prophecy. So yearly seems likely as it's the really the only evidence we have to when the LEM should be observed. There is no evidence of daily, weekly or monthly.

I think you may have overlooked or forgotten how Paul wrote on this issue.

See 1 Corinthians 11:17-34.

There is still no indication by Paul in his writings how often he observed the Lord's Evening Meal. Thus because Jesus started the observance on Nissan 14 (Passover), an already extremely important yearly practice and no indication that the Apostles did it again the next day, week, or month. Then yearly is still likely.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 32 by marco]

I didn't give an interpretation. I stated what was in the Bible as a commandment and what isn't concerning what to observe when it come to Jesus. If Jesus wanted us to celebrate his birth or death, that would have been the time to announce it. As far as when we should observe the Lord's Evening Meal, it taking place on the yearly Jewish Passover was no accident. It was all part of the prophecy. So yearly seems likely as it's the really the only evidence we have to when the LEM should be observed. There is no evidence of daily, weekly or monthly.

Since you gave no interpretation then it is fair to suppose you agree with the Roman Catholic interpretation, else you would have stated a rival meaning.

It is of course unlikely that Christ himself would have boastfully set up days on which his birth should be remembered; but clearly he was in the habit himself of observing certain important days. Thus people who honour Jesus would want to celebrate his birth and remember his death.

When we get preoccupied with our own version of how to read Scripture, we do other people as pious or more so than ourselves a great disservice. So it is fine to quote some words as long as we are aware that our fallible little brains take ONE interpretation; others may find richer, truer interpretations.

The simple question is: from reading Christ's words and his advice, is it likely he would have frowned on carol singers? I am certain he would not. Suffer little children to come unto me - and he didn't specify that they had to come in special uniform. If they approach with a hymn, I'm sure that is acceptable. I am always reminded of the Pharisee looking down on the poor publican who prayed in his own way, while the Pharisee, who knew the letter of the law, looked on contemptuously. And Christ warned us about this attitude.

My concern is what is found in the Bible and not what is not found in the Bible. That is how I view the Bible. If you want to try to interpret every scripture so that they support every kind of worship then go right ahead. Yet Paul said of worship, ""I have the right to do anything," you say--but not everything is beneficial. "I have the right to do anything"--but not everything is constructive." 1 Cor 10:23

Carol singers are not a concern to me. Yet why are they only singing about Jesus' praises once a year and only one subject? Jesus spoke of the coming Kingdom of God all the time. He also commanded to preach that Good News. Why not sing about what is in the Bible and what Jesus spoke about?

At any rate, you wish to worship in ways that are not in the Bible then go right ahead. As for me, I'll stick to what is in the Bible and I don't feel bad at all about doing that or feel a need in apologizing for it. What is found in the Bible has kept me quite safe in a dangerous world.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 37 by Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 36 by Blastcat]

My Dad had a solution -- a sign in his yard:

"No Peddlers allowed, includes religion"


Another from somewhere on the web:

"This household charges $100 an hour (or part thereof) to listen to religious commercials -- payable in advance."

Can I charge the JW for the lovely sign and the space rental fees?
It's $100 bucks an hour to place that sign on my lawn.

[catnip]

[Replying to post 32 by marco]

I didn't give an interpretation. I stated what was in the Bible as a commandment and what isn't concerning what to observe when it come to Jesus. If Jesus wanted us to celebrate his birth or death, that would have been the time to announce it. As far as when we should observe the Lord's Evening Meal, it taking place on the yearly Jewish Passover was no accident. It was all part of the prophecy. So yearly seems likely as it's the really the only evidence we have to when the LEM should be observed. There is no evidence of daily, weekly or monthly.

I think you may have overlooked or forgotten how Paul wrote on this issue.

See 1 Corinthians 11:17-34.

There is still no indication by Paul in his writings how often he observed the Lord's Evening Meal. Thus because Jesus started the observance on Nissan 14 (Passover), an already extremely important yearly practice and no indication that the Apostles did it again the next day, week, or month. Then yearly is still likely.

Actually, there is. In fact, because they tended to drink watered down wine at every meal, saying, "Do this as often as you drink it" indicates every meal.

We can see in ACTS that as practicing Jews, those who followed Christ met together in the evening after the Sabbath (ended at sundown) for an Agape meal. In short it was weekly.

One thing that scripture does omit are those things that everybody knew at the time. Strangely, we don't seem to think writing such things down will become important 2000 years later. The Bible is not a source for practice--that was the Didache and similar texts.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 45 by catnip]
As I told another poster though, I'm not concerned so much with what is not in the Bible but what is in the Bible. And while your additional historical information is educational it doesn't mean that the LEM be observed weekly. That's quite a stretch to draw such a conclusion. If something was omitted from the Bible then there is a reason.

However, rather than information outside the Bible, there is Biblical support for yearly. The Passover lamb was symbolic of the Christ. In fact the Bible calls Jesus the 'Lamb of God'. (John 1:29) For the Passover meal which is observed only yearly was a whole lamb. After Jesus gave his life there was no need for the Passover reminder. Because the Passover was meant to remind Israel of was what God did in the past and what will be given them in the future, in the way of a savior. This had been fulfilled in Jesus. So the timing of Jesus establishing the LEM on Passover is perfect and the LEM was to give a new yearly reminder of what had happened and what is to come. This all fits so much better than basing the LEM on Sabbath eating customs or just a single sentence from the Bible out of context. If Jesus had established the LEM on the Sabbath, then I'd say you'd have a case for weekly, but it wasn't. It was established on a yearly special occasion.

Moreover, Paul associated Jesus death with another annual Jewish feast, the Day of Atonement. At Hebrews 9:25, 26, we read: Neither is it in order that [Jesus] should offer himself often, as indeed the high priest enters into the holy place from year to year [on Atonement Day] with blood not his own...But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to put sin away through the sacrifice of himself.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 46 by 2timothy316]

!

[center]2timothy316 is not concerned about what is not in the Bible and assumes what is not in the Bible[/center]

As I told another poster though, I'm not concerned so much with what is not in the Bible but what is in the Bible.

( ... )

If something was omitted from the Bible then there is a reason.

Are you telling us that you aren't concerned too much with the reason that is not IN the Bible?

Should we be concerning ourselves about what is not in the Bible?

[catnip]

[Replying to post 45 by catnip]

As I told another poster though, I'm not concerned so much with what is not in the Bible but what is in the Bible.

I don't know what more you need in the Bible than this:

24and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me. 25In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me. 26For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lords death until He comes.

And while your additional historical information is educational it doesn't mean that the LEM be observed weekly. That's quite a stretch to draw such a conclusion. If something was omitted from the Bible then there is a reason.

That is the tradition of the most ancient church. It is mentioned in ACTS. It is depicted on the walls of the catacombs. It never stopped and it never changed. The church began even while Christ still lived and continued on long before any Gospel was written. What they did then, we continue to this day.

The Lord met his disciples on the road to Emmaus they didn't recognize him until that evening at the ordinary meal, but when he broke the bread they recognized him: Luke 24 30While He was reclining at the table with them, He took bread, spoke a blessing and broke it, and gave it to them. 31Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Jesus"and He disappeared from their sight.

He had done this at every gathering among them throughout his ministry. Why do any of us think it should be extraordinary? Again, the Jews drank watered down wine at every meal because the water was not good. Even children did this. The Bible was not written in a void--separate and apart--but within a culture and many of its practices were continued by those who believed in Chriist after he was gone. They continued to do what they had always done.

However, rather than information outside the Bible, there is Biblical support for yearly. The Passover lamb was symbolic of the Christ. In fact the Bible calls Jesus the 'Lamb of God'. (John 1:29)

That isn't sufficient to undo what else is written about the Eucharistic (Agape) feast.

For the Passover meal which is observed only yearly was a whole lamb. After Jesus gave his life there was no need for the Passover reminder.

Why once a year? We actually can do it every day of the week. I thought y'all were the ones against special celebrations and special days!

So the timing of Jesus establishing the LEM on Passover is perfect and the LEM was to give a new yearly reminder of what had happened and what is to come. This all fits so much better than basing the LEM on Sabbath eating customs or just a single sentence from the Bible out of context. If Jesus had established the LEM on the Sabbath, then I'd say you'd have a case for weekly, but it wasn't. It was established on a yearly special occasion.

There IS more than a single sentence. And there is no reason why after he is risen we should not celebrate as often as we gather together as they always did. That was the early Christian practice--it was not just worship, it was communion. All the early house churches that archaeologists have found included a table around which they ate and shared the feast. And yes, it does matter--because what was lost has been found despite those who think God does not speak apart from the Bible.

[onewithhim]

Give it up, 2timothy316.....your words are falling on deaf ears. Your reasoning is sound and it is right on. Yet folks have to stick up for their particular club's teaching. I would venture to say that more money comes into the churches' coffers the more things they need or want to buy. "Watered down" wine (odd, when Jesus made the best wine) or grape juice and little styrofoam wafers. Parishioners are pressured to give more and more. There is no verifiable nor sensible reason for Christians to celebrate Jesus' Memorial more than once a year.

God invites everyone (and this is in a spiritual sense):

"Ho! Everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost. Why do you spend money for what is not bread, and your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, and delight yourself in abundance." (Isaiah 55:1,2, NASB)

[marco]

"Truly I say to you, Unless you turn around and become as young children, you will by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens. Therefore, whoever will humble himself like this young child is the one that is the greatest in the kingdom of the heavens." (Matthew 18:3,4)

So we have agreement. Jesus admired the innocence of little children and would obviously derive pleasure from seeing that little children ARE ALLOWED TO COME TO HIM ON HIS SPECIAL DAY. The words you quote tell us how much Christ would have approved of little children singing carols in his honour. It would be absurd to think otherwise, as if Christ were opposed to children enjoying life in a holy and pleasing way. Thanks for the supportive quote. Christmas is okay then.