Is the Job narrative evidence of human construction?

[marco]

To many the story of Job is an embarrassment in its artificiality and the ludicrous collusion between heaven and hell. The chorus line that follows each of the disasters that initially beset the man is "and I only am escaped alone to tell thee." Would an author today get off with what seems such a silly scenario?

We can say the story illustrates the goodness and patience of a splendid individual but what can we say about the divinity who presided over Job's tribulations?

Have the writers of the story gone too far this time in trying to illustrate God can do what he likes?

Can we find anything good to say about the God in this story?

Satan turned up at what seems to have been an absurd AGM of angels and their master and instead of being turned away he was listened to and his challenge accepted - to torture a good human being for being good.

Does this suggest the Bible sometimes wanders into nonsensical tales?

Or can we find any good in the God-Satan plot?

[marco]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

An addendum to this is the Muslim take on the tale. Naturally women don't come off too well.


When Job's wife had seen her husband restored to his former health and wealth with brand new kids, she prayed thanks to God but then worried about the oath her husband had taken, in which he had promised to beat her with a hundred strokes. Job was also sorry too about the oath he had taken but an oath is an oath. God, however, sent a revelation to Job, which told him not to beat his wife but to hit her gently with a bundle of soft grass.

Given this is stronger evidence than the Biblical narrative (God's word rather than God's inspired word) this shows that God is indeed compassionate.

Should the Bible authors have given God a better role?

[JehovahsWitness]

Or can we find any good in the God-Satan plot?

Yes, the book of Job illustrate God's wisdom in settling the issue of whether humans can remain faithful under test. It also sheds light on the central issue of unversal souvereignty a central theme of the bible, which in turn explains why God has permitted suffering and what God intends to do about it.

It also has a magificent conclusion that well illustrates the wisdom and beauty of Creation in Chaps 38-42.


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[marco]

Or can we find any good in the God-Satan plot?

Yes, the book of Job illustrate God's wisdom in settling the issue of whether humans can remain faithful under test. It also sheds light on the central issue of unversal souvereignty a central theme of the bible, which in turn explains why God has permitted suffering and what God intends to do about it.

It also has a magificent conclusion that well illustrates the wisdom and beauty of Creation in Chaps 38-42.

Perhaps we are reading different versions. In the Authorised Version we have Job saying: "I abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes," as though he had been the instigator of the tribulations.

God asks for seven bullocks and seven rams (why this silly preoccupation with numbers?) to be pointlessly slaughtered in sacrifice. This conversation between God and humans is really plausible! We then get exact numbers of sheep and camels that Job received in compensation, as well as oxen and asses. And wonderfully, God gave him new sons and daughters - for tough guys like Job can quickly forget the children they already had.

The tale, for artless marco at least, is silliness wrapped in absurdity, and does not do the Bible any credit. One wonders why it was included. But it certainly provides recruiting ground for young atheists.

[JehovahsWitness]

Perhaps we are reading different versions.

I usually use the New World Translation (pub. by Jehovah's Witnesses); I'll link the online version for you below, I don't think there are any notable differences, apart fo the presence in the NWT of the Divine name and a lack of archaic language.

New World Translation
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/


JW

[marco]

Perhaps we are reading different versions.

I usually use the New World Translation (pub. by Jehovah's Witnesses); I'll link the online version for you below, I don't think there are any notable differences, apart fo the presence in the NWT of the Divine name and a lack of archaic language.

New World Translation
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/

Yes, there are no real differences. The story remains as silly in one form as in another, which is to be expected.

Do you honestly think supernatural beings behave in this petty way? If there is a supernatural world, surely it is above human nastiness, sadism and petty anger? If not, then I prefer the Greek and Roman pantheon.

[JehovahsWitness]

I prefer the Greek and Roman pantheon.

Then I should think the best thing for you would be to read Greek and Roman pantheon. I generally think people should do what they prefer especially when it comes to reading material, I enjoy reading the bible, I get a lot out of it but if you don't it might be best not to read it.

Personal opinion,

JW

[Tired of the Nonsense]

To many the story of Job is an embarrassment in its artificiality and the ludicrous collusion between heaven and hell. The chorus line that follows each of the disasters that initially beset the man is "and I only am escaped alone to tell thee." Would an author today get off with what seems such a silly scenario?

We can say the story illustrates the goodness and patience of a splendid individual but what can we say about the divinity who presided over Job's tribulations?

Have the writers of the story gone too far this time in trying to illustrate God can do what he likes?

Can we find anything good to say about the God in this story?

Satan turned up at what seems to have been an absurd AGM of angels and their master and instead of being turned away he was listened to and his challenge accepted - to torture a good human being for being good.

Does this suggest the Bible sometimes wanders into nonsensical tales?

Or can we find any good in the God-Satan plot?

The first question one might consider asking themselves, is exactly who was up in heaven watching all of this occur and writing it all down? Believers of course insist that it was divinely inspired. In other words, someone made it up and declared it to be true.

[theophile]

[Replying to marco]

Is your question whether human beings wrote the book of Job? Of course they did.

To your specific questions:

Can we find anything good to say about the God in this story?

Of course we can!

The book of Job has two parts, distinguished by prose and poetry. In the prose prologue and epilogue, there is the question of Job's test, and God's role in it (and to your question, if we can find anything good to say about God there). In the poetic dialogue, there is the question of Job's outburst / lament, and the friends' and God's response to it (and again, if we can find anything good to say about God there).

Let's start with the prose prologue, since it sets the stage and you also ask:

can we find any good in the God-Satan plot?

First, it is not Satan but the satan in the book of Job. Important distinction.

Second, the satan is a role versus a specific entity, i.e., the adversary, accuser, doubter. The satan is someone, anyone, who comes to challenge, like a prosecutor or accuser in a court of law, who has a case to make against someone.

The question is, what is the case that the satan has come to make and against who? What does the satan come to argue in God's court?

Hence God's question: "Where have you come from?" and the satan's answer: "From walking up and down the earth."

With this, it seems quite likely that the satan comes with a case against humankind (i.e., earthlings), since it is human beings that the satan would have observed on its travels. Although unstated, I think it is quite reasonable to assume that the satan has come to challenge the role and status that God assigned for us there, i.e., to rule over the earth (see Genesis 1). Through its travels, the satan has come to believe that we are unworthy of this position, and has come to God's court to make this case.

Hence God's response: "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him..."

With this, the stage is set. Job is put forward as an exemplar human being that justifies the status and role that God assigned to human beings in Genesis 1.

The satan, however, has a good argument against Job, that he is only a good example because of what's in it for him. Thus the only possible next step is some sort of test, to see who is right and if the satan has a case.

All that said, God's "goodness," to your question, is twofold. It is to (1) stand up for humankind against those who would make a case against us, and it is to (2) address the doubts of those who have lost faith in us, i.e., all the satans out there, through Job's test.

God both defends and addresses. Two good and admirable things, I think.

The other aspect of God's goodness in the book of Job is the poetic dialogue, and his response to Job's lament. But let's start with this, since if we can't agree on this, there's no way we'll agree on the rest.

[marco]

Is your question whether human beings wrote the book of Job? Of course they did.

That would be a silly question. Was the tale constructed i.e. made up by humans rather than God-inspired? As has been pointed out, what God got up to with his angels is not something humans have evidenced, so one concludes fabrication.

First, it is not Satan but the satan in the book of Job. Important distinction.

Well the King James sensibly writes Satan. I find your elaborate interpretation less likely and barely comprehensible or plausible in a very, very simple story.
An accuser, brought on to the stage in this silly way, would surely melt before the sight of God. The scenario is even worse than the Satan-God set-up.

The question is, what is the case that the satan has come to make and against who? What does the satan come to argue in God's court?

We are being serious? In God's court? A litigant? And why does God require to ask where the being comes from? Fine in a play, where the audience need to know, but stupid in the mouth of God. As fiction it is mildly entertaining.

Hence God's response: "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him..."

A proper God would have punished such presumption rather than indulge in a dialogue.

With this, the stage is set.

You seem to be aware of the theatrical nature of the events. That is good.

God both defends and addresses. Two good and admirable things, I think.

God condones violence and suppresses any kind of assistance. Wicked, I think. God's response to Job's lament is to express selfish anger first, and demand some sort of sacrificial apology. As if HE had suffered! His insensitive restoration of a new family indicates the God that is depicted here is an example of vengeance and cruelty. He was responsible for Job's suffering since a simple word would have ended it.


The worst part of this story is that good people read it and seek to find nice things. Instead of calling evil by its name, they want to build a cloak of goodness round it in the belief that ANYTHING God does is good. Not if God is an invention by ancient brutes, which this story seems to indicate.