CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

[tigger2]

CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (emphasis added by me.)
..

Athanasian Creed:

"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
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"Trinity, the Most Holy

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
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The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

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Challenges from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

(Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly described with the word one or its equivalent - alone, only, etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to Jesus is the Christ or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

YHWH is the Son, or YHWH is the Firstborn, or, YHWH is the Messiah (or Christ), or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that Jesus is YHWH (the only God according to scripture).
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Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in three distinct persons):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" " Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)

and,
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(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
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(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
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(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential knowledge of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God

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(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God. - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to Checkpoint]

Ok, now I understand and I am a little embarrassed because I did not realize what I did. I am vey new at this and truly just started posting about a week ago. So I would ask you to excuse me of my ignorance.

Understood, not a problem in the least. We all have our moments.

It would be helpful if you would give me a tip on how to show the original OP questions in a boxed quote, with my response after each of them (as you do).

Sorry for my delay in doing this.

Now I see that tigger has posted some good instructions. Just let me know of anything else you need in this area.

It took me a week or two to figure out what you were asking about.

[B Bob]

[Replying to Checkpoint]

OK, I responded to everything that you asked at this point. Self admittedly, my inexperience and ignorance has caused me to not follow the proper protocol. However, I noticed you, by engaging me with questions not relating to the OP are also guilty of not following proper protocol when you responded to my post #185. You see, I answered your previous post of #184, but you did not respond to my answers in my post #185. Seeing that you are not a novice (as I am), you are holding me to a standard that you are not complying with even though, unlike me, you know better. Meaning, you asked questions about my post #184, but did not respond to my answers to YOUR post #184. You exploited my inexperience and pulled a trick on me. Your questions in post $184 did not depend on the OP. Therefore, according to your standards, you failed to answer my response. What makes this matter messy is, you in not being forthright in your response to my reply to YOUR questions of post #184, more or less deflected the blame on me for not responding to the OP.

To be fair, I would be impressed if you held yourself to the same standard(s) as you are holding me. Please reply to the questions that I answered from you in my post #185 to YOUR QUESTIONS TO ME IN POST YOPUR #184.

Is that fair enough? I hope I have not offended you, because I very much want to continue our communications

[tigger2]

[Replying to post 186 by Checkpoint]

Apparently my aging memory has become worse than my eyesight. I can't find my comments for parts G. and H. of the OP.

I commented on part A in post 16 above. B is in post 17; C in 18; D in 19; E in 20 and F in post 27. And then got sidetracked with other comments. So I'll continue with comments on parts G and H in my following posts.

For Bob:

To use the quote feature, highlight the portion you want quoted and then click on "Quote" in the appropriate box above the message box. Do this for every section you want to quote.

I often make up my message on my word processor before copying it to the message box. Then, after it is in the message box, I highlight the various words or sections I wish to modify and then click on the box I need for each: italicize [i], bolden[B], quote, etc.

It's usually a good idea to preview your post before you actually submit it. And don't forget the edit button if you see mistakes after you have posted.

I commented on part A in post 16 above. B is in post 17; C in 18; D in 19; E in 20 and F in post 27. And then got sidetracked with other comments. So I'll continue with comments on parts G and H in my following posts.

Part G of the OP:

(G) If John, the last NT writer, truly believed the new knowledge of Jesus being equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God John 20:30-31.


As for some trinitarians assertion that "for Jesus to claim to be God's Son was a claim to equality with God," we need only examine the trinitarian New Bible Dictionary:

"Son of God' in Heb[rew] means god' or god-like' rather than son of (the) God (Yahweh)'. In Job 1:6 ... Ps. 29:1; 89:6, the sons of God' form Yahweh's [Jehovah's] heavenly train [angels] or subordinates" - p. 1133. And, "Son of ...' is an idiom for having the characteristics of' or doing the work of'." - cf. Mt 5:9, 45. - p. 1134, 2nd ed., 1982, Tyndale House Publishers.

And noted Biblical Hebrew expert, Gesenius, tells of only three scriptural Jewish understandings of "Sons of God":

"The appellation of sons of God' is given in the Old Test. - (a) To angels .... (b) to kings ... as being the substitutes of God on earth .... (c) to men who piously worship God." - pp. 126-127, Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, Baker Book House.

Luke also gives another understanding of the term "the Son of God" in the sense of one who was actually created by God: Luke 3:38 (KJV, RSV).

So should we honestly conclude from the fact that Jesus was repeatedly called the Son of God that it must mean he is God? If that were true, shouldnt He have been called God at least as often as son of God?

As for the challenge of part G above:

Why in the world would John completely ignore the greatest Christian revelation of all time (God is three persons) - unless it is not really true?

[tigger2]

I commented on part A in post 16 above. B is in post 17; C in 18; D in 19; E in 20; F in 27; and G in post #193. And then got sidetracked with other comments. So I'll finish with comments on part H in this post. Please review these posts if you wish to comment on the Challenges of the OP.


(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.


Luke 19:47,48; 20:20; and 22:1,2 also show that the Jewish leaders wished to have Jesus killed but still could not find a reasonable excuse!

Clearly the priests and the High Priest were unaware of any hint that Jesus or his followers believed Jesus was equally God! They were totally concerned that he and his followers claimed that he was the CHRIST!

And even after Jesus death, the Jewish leaders still had no concept whatever of him claiming to be God. Notice how they called him an impostor - Matt. 27:63, RSV, NRSV, ESV, JB, NJB, NAB (70 and 91); NEB, REB, and MLB - and this is explained by trinitarian commentators commenting on the following verse (27:64) as meaning he had pretended to be the Messiah!

For example: NIV Study Bible - Matt. 27:64 This last deception will be worse than the first. The first would be that Jesus was the Messiah, the second that he had risen as the Son of God. - footnote.

Reason alone makes such an interpretation of this verse clear. And so, we find the following trinitarian commentaries agreeing with the NIVSB quote above:

Robertsons Word Pictures. The first fraud was belief in the Messiahship of Jesus, the second belief in his resurrection.

so the last error shall be worse than the first--the imposture of His pretended resurrection worse than that of His pretended Messiahship. - Jamieson, Fausset & Brown Commentary.

The last error shall be worse than the first - That is, the last deception, or the taking him from the tomb, pretending that he rose, will have a wider influence among the people than the first, or his pretending to be the Messiah. - Barnes Notes.

What they now wanted was a way of safeguarding the tomb, in order that the body might not be stolen by fanatical disciples and His resurrection then proclaimed. In that event, they believe that the last delusion, the belief in the resurrection of Jesus, would be worse than the first one was, the belief in His Messiahship. - The Popular Commentary by Paul E. Kretzmann

The last error, namely, the false impression that he has risen from the dead, will be worse than the first error - the impression made by his impostures that he was the Messiah. - Vincent's Word Studies.

Clearly, the Jewish leaders themselves never believed that Jesus or his followers ever claimed any equality to God!

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 192 by B Bob]

To be fair, I would be impressed if you held yourself to the same standard(s) as you are holding me. Please reply to the questions that I answered from you in my post #185 to YOUR QUESTIONS TO ME IN POST YOPUR #184.

Is that fair enough? I hope I have not offended you, because I very much want to continue our communications

Whatever.

Let's see what I can say about our posts #184 and 185...


Your #185 gave your resposes to those.

I appreciate they were logical, considered, and serious.

I did not agree or disagree with everything you wrote, but did not have the energy to respond to each in detail.

Yes, perhaps I was remiss in that respect.

In this post I will respond to the part in which you introduced another theme for discussion, when you wrote:

However, I will say this or rather pose this question concerning the sixth day of creation: Keep in mind the creation story is from God's view (it is past tense), but has yet to be fulfilled in the fullness of time. Here goes: In consideration that God created man in His image and likeness, then man sinned and was no longer in the image and likeness of God, even banished from the Garden of Eden (type and shadow of heaven). God, being a God who devises plans to restore the banished one (2 Sam 14:14), made man in His sinless and innocent likeness again through the resurrection of Jesus Christ so man could enter heaven (Garden of Eden) again. Is it reasonable to believe God only made man in His image and likeness in the beginning of the sixth day, but saw that man was no longer made in His image and likeness and ended the sixth day of creation to enter His own eternal rest without restoring man and making him (born again) in His image and likeness?

To begin with, I must make some observations, so you know where I stand and where I am coming from in any answers given.

You say the creation story is yet to be fulfilled. Not necessarily. You and others are entitled to that belief, but it does not say so in scripture.

Also, according to scripture man is still in the likeness and image of God even though sinners.

Do you see what is happening here?

My two observations have so questioned the scenario you outlined that I have nothing further to say as an answer!Man remains in the image of God, so that image does not include being sinless, even though that is what God is.

Anyway, that is where I am at on this one at the moment.

As you said, as scripture says< iron sharpens iron>
[/quote]

[tigger2]

[Replying to tigger2]

I commented on part A in post 16 above. B is in post 17; C in 18; D in 19; E in 20; F in 27; and G in 193; and H in post#194. Please review these posts if you wish to comment on the Challenges of the OP.

Wow, Tigger, what great posts!

I particularly like post #194 where you show that John's summary of his own Gospel completely ignores the suggestion by some that Jesus is God!

[B Bob]

[Replying to Checkpoint]

Ok, what day did God make man in His sinless image and likeness again? The sixth day when He said He did it, or the seventh day where He entered His rest?

[tigger2]

[Replying to tigger2]

Ooops! That should have been post 193 where John made it clear that his Gospel was written (not to show Jesus as God) to show that Jesus was the MESSIAH.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to tigger2]

Ooops! That should have been post 193 where John made it clear that his Gospel was written (not to show Jesus as God) to show that Jesus was the MESSIAH.

Tigger, I esp. like your post #193!

I don't understand, though, what you're saying about God's making man in His image and then man not being in His image any more, and Christ dying so humans could go to heaven (as Checkpoint quoted you in his post #195).

Did I get that wrong?

[tigger2]

[Replying to onewithhim]

I think Checkpoint was replying to B Bob. The quote was not from me.

I'm happy you like post #193. That makes two of us!!