Did Jesus exist? (Replaces earlier poll)

[Zzyzx]

.
Did Jesus live 2000 years ago, preach for a few years, and get executed?

This is NOT asking if you accept that he performed miracles or was supernatural – only that he existed, preached, was executed.

All are encouraged to explain why they do or do not accept



This thread / poll replaces an earlier one that was poorly worded.

Apologies to those who contributed to the previous thread (which is now in the Trash Can)

[For_The_Kingdom]

Fair enough, but you seemed to imply, or more accurately you stated, that you would 'drop some gems' in a live conversation. Do these gems not stand up in a forum post?

They do, but I want them to stand up in real time.

Anyway, I wish you the best in finding someone to dialogue with. I understand some (most?) people prefer actual live conversation. I'm likely in the minority, but I prefer written exchange.

That's whats up.

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 153 by Talishi]

You realize the OP question is not about the "Jesus who was resurrected" but is about "the Jesus ABOUT WHOM STORIES INVOLVING HIS RESURRECTION circulated"? Right?


The question here is not whether Jesus was raised from the dead or not. The question is whether there was at least a man named Jesus, allowing that crazy stories got attached to him later.

Do you have historical evidence showing that the entire man was invented?

[MadeNew]

So you are admitting to about 8 sources that claim Jesus was a real person (estimating "a small number" to be 3, (and there is a lot more then that you haven't listed), and all of these early sources are pointing to the same thing, Jesus existed...

If, two thousand years from now, historians still have a few fragments of contemporary reports about the existence of the Church of Scientology, Scientologists of that time will say, "See, third party confirmation that Xenu existed!" They will say that, but it won't be proof that Xenu existed.

Ok, lets not make statements of nothing more then speculation and wild guesses, i am interested in the evidence, lets talk about things that are actually true instead of things that have no ground in truth like your last statement. It seems like for some reason you think that evidence isn't a good source for leading us to conclusions. The evidence should dictate where you draw your conclusions... So let me get this straight, all the evidence you know of tells you Jesus existed, but you don't believe it because some reason X, Y , and Z, which seems to be not even a uniform criticism but a bunch of little different arguments, that all speculate that these sources might not be credible, for reason X, Y, Z, etc...

Let me ask you, what lead you to the conclusion Jesus never existed? Because anti-faith is not a good reason to conclude anything, based on what atheist say "Faith is belief without evidence"... What about your anti faith?

What evidence led you to believe Jesus never existed?

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 160:

You realize the OP question is not about the "Jesus who was resurrected" but is about "the Jesus ABOUT WHOM STORIES INVOLVING HIS RESURRECTION circulated"? Right?

Indicative of the problems we encounter when we try to "separate the man from the myth".

The question here is not whether Jesus was raised from the dead or not. The question is whether there was at least a man named Jesus, allowing that crazy stories got attached to him later.

It's quite plausible a man by the name of Jesus (ya know) once existed - in that I have little doubt. I just doubt he could walk on water with them holes in his feet.

Do you have historical evidence showing that the entire man was invented?

When noted scholars disagree, we're lost as a cow at a square dance.

[Talishi]

[Replying to post 153 by Talishi]

You realize the OP question is not about the "Jesus who was resurrected" but is about "the Jesus ABOUT WHOM STORIES INVOLVING HIS RESURRECTION circulated"? Right?


The question here is not whether Jesus was raised from the dead or not. The question is whether there was at least a man named Jesus, allowing that crazy stories got attached to him later.

Do you have historical evidence showing that the entire man was invented?

Whether we are talking about some fellow named Yeshua who was the founder of the four or five movements that coalesced into Christianity, or God made flesh, it doesn't matter. My post (#155) is the totality of the claims that he existed (taking Luke and Acts to be a single work). Revelation mentions that Jerusalem was where he was crucified, so that might count as well. I do not accept demands to prove a negative, it's bad form in a debate, as touched upon by JK Rowling in Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone:

“… what about the stone, Mr Lovegood? The thing you call the Resurrection Stone?�
“What of it?�
“Well, how can that be real?�
“Prove that it is not,� said Xenophilius.
Hermione looked outraged.
“But that’s – I’m sorry, but that’s completely ridiculous! How can I possibly prove it doesn’t exist? Do you expect me to get hold of -of all the pebbles in the world and test them? I mean, you could claim that anything’s real if the only basis for believing in it is that nobody’s proved it doesn’t exist!�

[Talishi]

Let me ask you, what lead you to the conclusion Jesus never existed? Because anti-faith is not a good reason to conclude anything, based on what atheist say "Faith is belief without evidence"... What about your anti faith?

But I did not conclude that Jesus never existed. In fact, in the poll, I voted that he did, because I take the existence of several Jesus movements as evidence that he did exist. However, in post #155 I enumerate the status of the positive claims by others that Jesus existed, and I find them to be sorely lacking.

[Talishi]

What evidence led you to believe Jesus never existed?

I take the existence of about five Jesus movements to be evidence that he did exist. One could hardly expect five such disparate groups to have emerged from thin air, all claiming to be true followers of an imaginary person. But I reject that there are any extant eyewitness reports of Jesus.

[MadeNew]

What evidence led you to believe Jesus never existed?

I take the existence of about five Jesus movements to be evidence that he did exist. One could hardly expect five such disparate groups to have emerged from thin air, all claiming to be true followers of an imaginary person. But I reject that there are any extant eyewitness reports of Jesus.

Ok, so you believe Jesus really existed, yet you call him imaginary? This would be a an example of cognitive dissonance if i am reading your response properly. Explain yourself.

[Talishi]

What evidence led you to believe Jesus never existed?

I take the existence of about five Jesus movements to be evidence that he did exist. One could hardly expect five such disparate groups to have emerged from thin air, all claiming to be true followers of an imaginary person. But I reject that there are any extant eyewitness reports of Jesus.

Ok, so you believe Jesus really existed, yet you call him imaginary? This would be a an example of cognitive dissonance if i am reading your response properly. Explain yourself.

I think we are finished. You don't seem to be able to understand what I write.

"One could hardly expect five such disparate groups to have emerged from thin air, all claiming to be true followers of an imaginary person. "

[Willum]

[Replying to post 167 by Talishi]

No, he did what you said someone might do in 2000 years.

He said, because you were talking about Jesus, and he was talking about Jesus, Jesus must exist. Or transformationally, because you spoke about people talking about him 2000 years ago, you have conceded that Jesus does exist.
I am pretty sure he hasn't yet realized what he has done, but I am pretty sure he thinks he's caught you into proving the existence of Jesus.

Just some advice - if you two are going to have conversations creating gods 2000 years from now, make 'em good ones!
Cordially