Theology: fact, or opinion

[Blastcat]

Hi folks!

Your friendly neighborhood gadfly here!

I've been asking theists in here ( ok, mostly Christians of all kinds ) if what they talk about are FACTS or OPINIONS?

I almost never seem to get replies to these questions.

When it comes to this theology subforum, for example, people will debate ENDLESSLY about what a Biblical passage is SUPPOSED to mean, what a word in the Bible means, and so on. Raging debates, never any seem to be resolved.

And I read these.. as an outsider to the debate.
There doesn't seem to BE a right answer.

So, the question for debate is:

Is theology merely discussions about opinions, or are they about facts?

Follow up questions might be:

IF theology is about facts, who has the CORRECT facts, and who is wrong? It seems that everyone is claiming they are right, and that anyone not in agreement is wrong.. OR WORSE.. from Satan or something.

To an outsider, theological arguments smack of a rationalization for tribalism.

So, that's 3 questions, really ..

1. Is theology merely about opinions?
2. If theology is about facts, how are we to tell fact from opinion in this case and
3. Is theology putting a justification for "us against them" thinking?

[Elijah John]

Hi folks!

Your friendly neighborhood gadfly here!

I've been asking theists in here ( ok, mostly Christians of all kinds ) if what they talk about are FACTS or OPINIONS?

I almost never seem to get replies to these questions.

When it comes to this theology subforum, for example, people will debate ENDLESSLY about what a Biblical passage is SUPPOSED to mean, what a word in the Bible means, and so on. Raging debates, never any seem to be resolved.

And I read these.. as an outsider to the debate.
There doesn't seem to BE a right answer.

So, the question for debate is:

Is theology merely discussions about opinions, or are they about facts?

Follow up questions might be:

IF theology is about facts, who has the CORRECT facts, and who is wrong? It seems that everyone is claiming they are right, and that anyone not in agreement is wrong.. OR WORSE.. from Satan or something.

To an outsider, theological arguments smack of a rationalization for tribalism.

So, that's 3 questions, really ..

1. Is theology merely about opinions?
2. If theology is about facts, how are we to tell fact from opinion in this case and
3. Is theology putting a justification for "us against them" thinking?

Theology is about opinions on the facts about God. (Speaking as a Theist, of course )

On this here forum, we speak as though the Bible is authoritative.

That "fact" is debatable, or course, but on other forums, not here..

Interpretations (opinions) as to the meaning of passages, verses etc...is fair game on this forum.

Those are "facts in dispute". But they are opinions.

"Theology" is the study of God, literally. We are studying on God here..and if you ask 3 of us, you are likely to get 4 different opinions, to borrow an expression from the Rabbis.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 2 by Elijah John]



[center]
In theology, what are the "facts" and what are the "opinions"?[/center]

Theology is about opinions on the facts about God. (Speaking as a Theist, of course )

That reply isn't as clear to me as it might have been to you... I'm a bit confused.
In theology, that "fact about God" is just assumed, right?

But isn't theology in the business of taking a stand on some form of OPINION about what God might be or does or says or means and so on?

On this here forum, we speak as though the Bible is authoritative.

Yeah, that's slowly sinking in. I had a bit of trouble with that.
In this forum, the Bible is just assumed to be authoritative, right?

That "fact" is debatable, or course, but on other forums, not here..

I don't know how assuming something is a fact MAKES it a fact. It seems to me.. playing with the word.

Is there a difference between a fact and an opinion in theology?

Interpretations (opinions) as to the meaning of passages, verses etc...is fair game on this forum.

Those are "facts in dispute". But they are opinions.

Ok, but that's a confusing statement to me... you say that verses state FACTS?.. or are you saying that when we are discussing a verse.. it's a FACT that the verse itself exists...

OR are you saying that BEFORE we know what the verse actually means... we KNOW that it's a fact?

Am I right in thinking that theology simply ASSUMES that the Bible verses SOMEHOW just represents "facts" but that we poor folks aren't HOLY or smart enough or whatever to figure what those facts MEAN?

Isn't that like saying: " X is a fact, though nobody really knows what X is" ?

"Theology" is the study of God, literally. We are studying on God here..and if you ask 3 of us, you are likely to get 4 different opinions, to borrow an expression from the Rabbis.

Yeah, that's what I see in here... opinions.. right.
So, is theology about FACTS or about OPINIONS? Are theologians studying FACTS about God or OPINIONS about God?

I'm not too sure if you said.

[Talishi]

"Theology" is the study of God, literally. We are studying on God here..and if you ask 3 of us, you are likely to get 4 different opinions, to borrow an expression from the Rabbis.

Theology is not like geology (the study of our planet) or meteorology (the study of our atmosphere), in that there is no actual subject from which to draw observations and make conclusions. It is philosophy. A person says, "You can know God from the Bible" so we examine the Bible to see what it says about him and what that implies. Another person says, "You can know God from pure reason," so we examine whether we can indeed arrive at the Father of Jesus Christ from three or four axioms of logic. Theology is very much like number theory. Numbers themselves are abstractions, but we can try to think about their properties in non-contradictory ways.

[Elijah John]

"Theology" is the study of God, literally. We are studying on God here..and if you ask 3 of us, you are likely to get 4 different opinions, to borrow an expression from the Rabbis.

Theology is not like geology (the study of our planet) or meteorology (the study of our atmosphere), in that there is no actual subject from which to draw observations and make conclusions. It is philosophy. A person says, "You can know God from the Bible" so we examine the Bible to see what it says about him and what that implies. Another person says, "You can know God from pure reason," so we examine whether we can indeed arrive at the Father of Jesus Christ from three or four axioms of logic. Theology is very much like number theory. Numbers themselves are abstractions, but we can try to think about their properties in non-contradictory ways.

Well said. But I would say that God IS an actual subject. Though perhaps and abstraction. Abstractions can be subjects, as are, (as you point out) numbers.

We can think about and study numbers (and God) and their properties in non-contradictory, logical ways.

And yes, BC, theologians and we amateurs deal in opinion on "supposed" facts about God whom we presume to exist.

I voted "Yes" for your survey. Hope that answers your question.

Theology is not an empirical discipline as is, (as Talishi observed), geology.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 4 by Talishi]

Theology is very much like number theory. Numbers themselves are abstractions, but we can try to think about their properties in non-contradictory ways.

Grrrrrr

I can't figure out from your post if you think theology is about fact or opinion.
Is MATH fact or opinion, for that matter?

In MY opinion, geology IS a philosophy.. but it's about facts. Or.. perhaps "the love of the knowledge about the physical planet."

What we call science these days branched off from the philosophy departments in universities.. because of SIZE, mostly. The schools needed new buildings to host classes and labs that specialized in KINDS of philosophies.. IN that sense, science can be described as a natural philosophy.. or the study of nature. And that study are about facts. I take nature as a fact.

So, ok, theology is a branch of philosophy.. I can agree with that But WHAT kind of "fact" is theology investigating?

Could you please clarify your position on the OP questions?

[Peds nurse]

Hey Mr. Blastcat!! I hope you are well today

Theology is defined as: the study of the nature of God and religious belief.

There are many different natures or attributes of God. God is just, God get's angry, God is loving, God is merciful, God gives judgement.... How we interpret those attributes, is quite different because it hinges upon our understanding, which forms our belief. How we interpret which understanding is accurate, requires both the study of scripture, as well as intervention from the HS. I would also like to say, that our belief's are not stagnant, the more He reveals to us what the truth is, the more we conform our belief's to fit within that context. It is constantly evolving.

Two separate ideas or theologies can be true simultaneously. God is forgiving, and God's wrath is poured out on his people can both be true, just as we are forgiving parents, and we ground our children.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 5 by Elijah John]



[center]Is the abstraction "God" fact, or opinion? [/center]

Well said. But I would say that God IS an actual subject. Though perhaps and abstraction. Abstractions can be subjects, as are, (as you point out) numbers.

As an atheist, I have no problem thinking of "God" as an abstraction, like "love" , and righteousness" and "fairness" are abstractions.

All of these are mental constructs that define a complex of ideas. In fact, I would say that "God" is a complex of abstractions.. an abstraction of a whole lot of abstractions.. or a meta-super abstraction, the one abstraction to rule them all.

I could express "God" as the "My Abstraction is Better than Your Abstraction" abstraction. I see theology as explaining why ONE abstraction is the best abstraction a la "Donald".

Some say that God is love. And in the Bible, god is also hate, and vengeance by his name, and God is fair, just, power, knowledge, mystery.. well.. God is even "ALL".

God is EVEN an abstraction of a "perfect" sentient being.

But are all abstractions about facts?

We can think about and study numbers (and God) and their properties in non-contradictory, logical ways.

Do math abstractions refer to FACTS or opinions?

And yes, BC, theologians and we amateurs deal in opinion on "supposed" facts about God whom we presume to exist.

I voted "Yes" for your survey. Hope that answers your question.

Ok, good.
That clarifies.

But Blastcat is a very slow learner.. and loves precision, so just to clarify your clarification:

Does theology deal with ANY facts at all, or is it ALL about opinions?

Theology is not an empirical discipline as is, (as Talishi observed), geology.

Ok, right.
I have no evidence to think that theology can be an empirical pursuit.

But still, as a skeptic, I reserve some doubt about my own position.
So, theology MIGHT be considering facts.

In other branches of philosophy.. ( maybe all of them ) there are FACTS to consider...
So.. again.. even though you say that theology is in the opinion business...

What can be said is TRUE in theology... is there any such thing at truth to theology?

And I would like someone to answer my 3rd question about tribalism.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 7 by Peds nurse]



[center] Does X = X in theology? [/center]

Theology is defined as: the study of the nature of God and religious belief.

There are many different natures or attributes of God. God is just, God get's angry, God is loving, God is merciful, God gives judgement....

Hi Peds, nice to debate with you again.
I'm not sure if you actually answered the OP's 3 questions, though.

That's I mean when I said that if God is just an abstraction for those words, then I don't have a problem. Except, I suspect that most Christians take "God" to mean something MORE than just an abstraction for love, and vengeance and hate and wisdom and mystery, and ignorance and so on. I really seem to think that a LOT of Christians take "God" to mean a real thing.. a real being.. that they "know" intimately and so on...

That's where I say .. er.. prove it?

How we interpret those attributes, is quite different because it hinges upon our understanding, which forms our belief. How we interpret which understanding is accurate, requires both the study of scripture, as well as intervention from the HS.

And what human, precisely is going to arbitrate just who has found the accuracy of another human's understanding of the Bible?

The Pope?
Yourself?

Blastcat?

I would also like to say, that our belief's are not stagnant, the more He reveals to us what the truth is, the more we conform our belief's to fit within that context. It is constantly evolving.

"He reveals to us. "

We would have to assume that's true.
If it's all true.. then.. what is there to debate?

Your revelations are better than other Christian's revelations ?
Why isn't God revealing himself a little more.... I don't know... perfectly?

I don't know how such a perfect communicator can communicate so POORLY that everyone has a different idea about what he is communicating.. by REVELATION.. isn't that a DIRECT communication from a GOD?

Why does he even BOTHER with revealing himself, if the communication doesn't WORK?

Two separate ideas or theologies can be true simultaneously.

Do you mean two OPPOSITE theological propositions can be true at the same time?

Does X = X in theology?

That equation doesn't make sense anywhere else. It's ILLOGICAL anywhere else.
Are you saying that theology, whether is it about facts or opinions is ILLOGICAL?

God is forgiving, and God's wrath is poured out on his people can both be true, just as we are forgiving parents, and we ground our children.

When you define theology as the study of God....

I have to ask if you think that theology is in the business of studying an actual God or opinions about a God that theologians have to first ASSUME is an actual God?

Does that question make sense to you?
Does theology worry about the truth of the beliefs at all?

Or is theology JUST about inventing hypotheticals?
Is there any KNOWLEDGE about God, or knowledge about the IDEAS about God?

If two opposing theological propositions can be true at the same time... how can theology be said to be rational?

It's like someone would say "Theology is about facts, and not about facts".
Well, if that's the case then, no theology can make SENSE to outsiders.

How can we possibly know if our beliefs are true when we discard sound reasoning? In what sense can theology be about the truth, if it's really "anything goes" ?

It's going to be fun to read your reply.

[Hawkins]

[Replying to post 1 by Blastcat]

Christianity is a set of theology written in the Bible. The NT Bible is written by a group of direct or indirect witnesses.


Your question makes no difference in asking that is the content in a history book opinion or fact.