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tigger2
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Serious Research?

Post #1

Post by tigger2 »

Hoghead1 wrote in post 148 of What is a soul?
FYI: [A] I've done some serious research on the NWT, which is precisely why I say it is bogus. For one thing, the translators are kept secret. this is the only translation of teh Bible I have ever found where nobody wants to reveal who the translators were. [C]More importantly, the text, key points, has been unduly corrupted to suit the biases of teh WatchTower Society. For example, in the prologue to JN. the indefinite article "a" is inserted, so that the text is mistranslated as "and the Word was a God." The rules of Greek grammar rule out the use of teh indefinite article here, which is why it is absent in the solid, standard translations. The reason why the WatchTower Society want the "a" in there is that this will support their anti-Trinitarian bias. [D]Also, in passages that speak of Hell and torment, the NWT reads "annihilation." That was done to bludgeon Scripture to fit their bias about the afterlife. It is one thing to disagree with Scripture. I respect that. it is quite another to corrupt the translation so that it agree with your position. [E]Also, "Jehovah" is a serious mistranslation. And that is Hebrew 101 material. So I feel I have very good reason to write off the NWT as bogus and corrupt.


I intend to discuss the individual parts (A-E) of the above.

Ill save part A for last.

B. You wrote:

For one thing, the translators are kept secret. this is the only translation of teh [sic] Bible I have ever found where nobody wants to reveal who the translators were.



For the first 30 years at least, the publishers of the NASB kept their translators anonymous:

The Fourfold Aim of The Lockman Foundation
1.These publications shall be true to the original Hebrew and Greek.
2. They shall be grammatically correct.
3. They shall be understandable to the masses.
4. They shall give the Lord Jesus Christ His proper place, the place which the Word gives Him; no work will ever be personalized. - page v., NASB, Ref. Ed., Lockman Foundation, 1971.

For many years the names of the NASB translators and editors were withheld by the publisher. But in 1995 this information was finally disclosed. - http://www.bible-researcher.com/nasb.html

Bible translations of the OT and NT texts should be judged according to their accuracy - not the person(s) who did the translation.

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Post #41

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 36 by tigger2]

Sorry, I meant to say "put." It is incorrect to say "a Word." That violates rules of Greek grammar. It is that simple.

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Post #42

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 35 by tigger2]

Names such as "Jesus" cane through a long process of" Greekization, Latinization," and then Anglicization. "Jehoval" did not come to us that way. It came to us because the translators, frankly speaking, didn't know what they were doing. It is never intended to be some sort of Anglicization, but the actual, original name of God.

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Post #43

Post by tigger2 »

hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 36 by tigger2]

Sorry, I meant to say "put." It is incorrect to say "a Word." That violates rules of Greek grammar. It is that simple.
And what rule of Greek grammar is being violated? And it is "a god" not "a Word." Apparently you still haven't done that "serious research."

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Post #44

Post by JehovahsWitness »

hoghead1 wrote:No existent Greek copy of the NT contains the Tetragrammaton.
This is untrue. Jah, , which according to the Jewish Encyclopedia, is " the contracted form" of the Tetragrammaton in Hebrew, occurs in the Greek expression hal-le-lou-i-a, a transliteration of the Hebrew ha-lelu-Yah, Praise Jah four times in the existent Greek copies of the NT in the book of Revelation

Darby Bible Translation
After these things I heard as a loud voice of a great multitude in the heaven, saying, Hallelujah: the salvation and the glory and the power of our God - Rev 19:1 (also see Re 19: 3, 4, 6)
Compare PSALMS 104:35

Let sinners cease out of the earth, And let the wicked be no more. Bless the LORD, O my soul. Hallelujah. - JPS Tanakh 1917

Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless you the LORD, O my soul. Praise you the LORD. - King James 2000 Bible

Let sinners be consumed out of the earth. Let the wicked be no more. Bless Yahweh, my soul. Praise Yah! - World English Bible

Consumed are sinners from the earth, And the wicked are no more. Bless, O my soul, Jehovah. Praise ye Jehovah! - Young's Literal Translation
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #45

Post by tigger2 »

hoghead wrote:
Names such as "Jesus" cane through a long process of" Greekization, Latinization," and then Anglicization. "Jehoval" did not come to us that way.
It doesn't matter what process they went through. What matters is how they are transliterated today.

'Jesus' is a clear mistransliteration of his actual name, probably Yehoshua. It is even a clear mistransliteration of the Greek transliteration Iesous [yay-soos].

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Post #46

Post by JehovahsWitness »

hoghead1 wrote: Some scholars did make a suggestion that perhaps the earliest Greek manuscripts did. However, their case is purely circumstantial and was based on rabbinical references to Christian writings containing the Divine Name being burnt. It is not know, however, if this meant the NT.
Since we do not have the earliest Greek manuiscripts and most certainly do not as yet have the the originals, ALL arguments, including your own are circumstantial.

The argument that the writers of the Christian bible did in fact incorportate the Divine name in their quotations of the Hebrew bible and their allusions to specific Hebrew passages is not only based on the fact that early christian writing are known to have contained the Tetragrammaton (although this is one of the several reasonings).

The New World Translation Committee presents some of these arguments in the appendix to the translation, which reads
The New World Bible Translation Committee determined that there is compelling evidence that the Tetragrammaton did appear in the original Greek manuscripts. The decision was based on the following evidence:

Copies of the Hebrew Scriptures used in the days of Jesus and his apostles contained the Tetragrammaton throughout the text. In the past, few people disputed that conclusion. Now that copies of the Hebrew Scriptures dating back to the first century have been discovered near Qumran, the point has been proved beyond any doubt.

In the days of Jesus and his apostles, the Tetragrammaton also appeared in Greek translations of the Hebrew Scriptures. For centuries, scholars thought that the Tetragrammaton was absent from manuscripts of the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. Then, in the mid-20th century, some very old fragments of the Greek Septuagint version that existed in Jesus day were brought to the attention of scholars. Those fragments contain the personal name of God, written in Hebrew characters. So in Jesus day, copies of the Scriptures in Greek did contain the divine name. However, by the fourth century C.E., major manuscripts of the Greek Septuagint, such as the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, did not contain the divine name in the books from Genesis through Malachi (where it had been in earlier manuscripts). Hence, it is not surprising that in texts preserved from that time period, the divine name is not found in the so-called New Testament, or Greek Scripture portion of the Bible.

Jesus plainly stated: I have come in the name of my Father. He also stressed that his works were done in his Fathers name

The Christian Greek Scriptures themselves report that Jesus often referred to Gods name and made it known to others. (John 17:6, 11, 12, 26) Jesus plainly stated: I have come in the name of my Father. He also stressed that his works were done in his Fathers name."John 5:43; 10:25.

Since the Christian Greek Scriptures were an inspired addition to the sacred Hebrew Scriptures, the sudden disappearance of Jehovahs name from the text would seem inconsistent.
About the middle of the first century C.E., the disciple James said to the elders in Jerusalem: Symeon has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. (Acts 15:14) It would not be logical for James to make such a statement if no one in the first century knew or used Gods name.

Early Jewish writings indicate that Jewish Christians used the divine name in their writings. The Tosefta, a written collection of oral laws that was completed by about 300 C.E., says with regard to Christian writings that were burned on the Sabbath: The books of the Evangelists and the books of the minim [thought to be Jewish Christians] they do not save from a fire. But they are allowed to burn where they are, they and the references to the Divine Name which are in them. This same source quotes Rabbi Yos the Galilean, who lived at the beginning of the second century C.E., as saying that on other days of the week, one cuts out the references to the Divine Name which are in them [understood to refer to the Christian writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns.

Some Bible scholars acknowledge that it seems likely that the divine name appeared in Hebrew Scripture quotations found in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Under the heading Tetragrammaton in the New Testament, The Anchor Bible Dictionary states: There is some evidence that the Tetragrammaton, the Divine Name, Yahweh, appeared in some or all of the O[ld] T[estament] quotations in the N[ew] T[estament] when the NT documents were first penned. Scholar George Howard says: Since the Tetragram was still written in the copies of the Greek Bible [the Septuagint] which made up the Scriptures of the early church, it is reasonable to believe that the N[ew] T[estament] writers, when quoting from Scripture, preserved the Tetragram within the biblical text.
CONCLUSION: Since we are not in possession of the original text or of the first (earliest) copies made, the decision as to whether they originally contained the name of God will by necessity have to be based on circumstantial evidence. There is a strong argument in favor of the name having originally been in the texts in question and the fact that many other translators and not a few bible scholars have come to similar conclusions of New World Translation committee, indicates that their conclusion is a legitmate one.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #47

Post by JehovahsWitness »

hoghead1 wrote: In any case, "Jehovah" is a serious mistranslation. We know how the mistake occurred, which is by a failure to properly understand the situation with the vowel indicators being used. And we know the proper pronunciation was very close to Yahweh.
Firstly, JEHOVAH isn't a translation at all, it is a transliteration. Whether something has been mis-transliterated would be determined by whether it fittingly reflects the sounds intended to be produced by pronouncing the original language in the target language.

I have addressed the charge that Jehovah is a "mistransliteration" in my responses to bjs in post # 15 and post #22 above.

JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #48

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to tigger2]

I think I already explained that the names "Jesus" and "Jehovah" are not on the same wavelength , so to speak. "Jesus" represents a long process of going from Greekization to Latinizartion, and then Anglicization. "Jehovah" did not go through any of that. It was intended to be the original name of name of God. It is a serious mistranslation, because the translators mistakenly thought this was the accurate way to translate the Hebrew scrip, including the vowel indicators, t over into the English alphabet. it is highly inaccurate because the original text says YHWH, pronounced Yahweh, is the name of God.

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Post #49

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 45 by JehovahsWitness]

"Jehovah" is nowhere near the correct pronunciation of YHWH, which is Yahweh. It is a serious mistranslation because the translators did not know how to properly deal with the vowel indicators.

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Post #50

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 44 by JehovahsWitness]

We have absolutely no texts to back any of your conjectures up. We have absolutely no clarity as to exactly what some sources mean when they refer to some Christian writings containing the Tetragrammaton. Maybe the are referring just the OT, maybe the NT, maybe some other kinds of sources. We do know such reference certainly would not be to "Jehovah." Until we come up with additional NT texts that do include the Tetragrammaton. the matter is purely one of idle speculation, with absolutely nothing to back it up.

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