Serious Research?

[tigger2]

Hoghead1 wrote in post 148 of What is a soul?

FYI: [A] I've done some serious research on the NWT, which is precisely why I say it is bogus. For one thing, the translators are kept secret. this is the only translation of teh Bible I have ever found where nobody wants to reveal who the translators were. [C]More importantly, the text, key points, has been unduly corrupted to suit the biases of teh WatchTower Society. For example, in the prologue to JN. the indefinite article "a" is inserted, so that the text is mistranslated as "and the Word was a God." The rules of Greek grammar rule out the use of teh indefinite article here, which is why it is absent in the solid, standard translations. The reason why the WatchTower Society want the "a" in there is that this will support their anti-Trinitarian bias. [D]Also, in passages that speak of Hell and torment, the NWT reads "annihilation." That was done to bludgeon Scripture to fit their bias about the afterlife. It is one thing to disagree with Scripture. I respect that. it is quite another to corrupt the translation so that it agree with your position. [E]Also, "Jehovah" is a serious mistranslation. And that is Hebrew 101 material. So I feel I have very good reason to write off the NWT as bogus and corrupt.

I intend to discuss the individual parts (A-E) of the above.

Ill save part A for last.

B. You wrote:

For one thing, the translators are kept secret. this is the only translation of teh [sic] Bible I have ever found where nobody wants to reveal who the translators were.

For the first 30 years at least, the publishers of the NASB kept their translators anonymous:

The Fourfold Aim of The Lockman Foundation
1.These publications shall be true to the original Hebrew and Greek.
2. They shall be grammatically correct.
3. They shall be understandable to the masses.
4. They shall give the Lord Jesus Christ His proper place, the place which the Word gives Him; no work will ever be personalized. - page v., NASB, Ref. Ed., Lockman Foundation, 1971.

For many years the names of the NASB translators and editors were withheld by the publisher. But in 1995 this information was finally disclosed. - http://www.bible-researcher.com/nasb.html

Bible translations of the OT and NT texts should be judged according to their accuracy - not the person(s) who did the translation.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim]

Why do you think Paul was "giving examples of CHRIST being tested in the desert"? He doesn't say that. It was JEHOVAH, the God and Father of Christ, who the Israelites put to the test. Jehovah is the MOST HIGH (Psalm 83:18, KJV), the "only true God" (John 17:3), Christ's God and Father (John 20:17).....the One from which all life and power comes. Christ is His Son and His Word (spokesman), and carries out assignments that Jehovah gives him to do. There is no logical reason whatsoever to say that Jesus and Jehovah are the same Person.

John 12:49,50
John 5:19
John 8:29

What do you think the relationship is between 1 Cor 10:1-4 and 1 Cor 10:5-11? They are completely unrelated?

1 Cor 10:1-11 is speaking about the wanderings in the desert as an example of how Jehovah deals with his people.

We know that Jehovah accompanied the people in the cloud wherever they went and provided for them physically and spiritually. V4 points out this person Jehovah who accompanied them was Christ.

v5-11 give specific ways in which they rebelled against and tested Jehovah who accompanied them in the cloud (i.e. according v4 Christ).

I really don't see from the context how it could be interpreted any other way - could you tell me how you interpret 1 Cor 10:1-11?

Well, if verse 4 in your reference scripture points out that the person in the cloud was Christ, then that's who it was---not Jehovah.

Exodus 14:19 says: "The angel of God, who had been going before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them." (NASB)


Clearly, the ANGEL OF GOD, not God (therefore, not Jehovah), was in the cloud.


Of course those verses in I Corinthians are not "unrelated." It is very clear. Jehovah was guiding the Israelites by means of His "angel," who later became Jesus of Nazareth.

Are you asking for specific ways that the people tested Jehovah?

1) "And the people fell to quarreling with Moses and saying: 'Give us water that we may drink.' But Moses said to them: 'Why are you quarreling with me? Why do you keep putting Jehovah to the test ?'" (Exodus 17:2) (Using your thinking, regarding this verse, maybe we should say that Moses was Jehovah.)

2) "But all the men who have been seeing my glory and my signs that I have performed in Egypt and in the wilderness and yet kept testing me these ten times, and have not listened to my voice..." (Numbers 14:22)

3) "And the sons of Israel kept saying to them [Moses & Aaron]: 'If only we had died by Jehovah's hand in the land of Egypt while we were sitting by the pots of meat, while we were eating bread to satisfaction, because you have brought us out into this wilderness to put this whole congregation to death by famine.' Then Jehovah said to Moses: 'Here I am raining down bread for you from the heavens; and the people must go out and pick up each his amount day for day...'" (Exodus 16:3,4)

We can see how the people constantly complained, never placing their trust in Jehovah. They criticized Moses, whom Jehovah had chosen to lead them, and therefore they were criticizing Jehovah. They said: "Is it so little a thing that you have brought us up out of a land flowing with milk and honey to put us to death in the wilderness, that you should also try to play the prince over us to the limit?" (Numbers 16:13) It was because of their lack of faith and their continuous complaints and their refusal to listen to Jehovah's commands that they ended up having to wander in the wilderness for 40 years....a trip that would have taken them about a month if they had cooperated.

"Remember: Do not forget how you have provoked Jehovah your God in the wilderness. From the day that you went out of the land of Egypt until your coming to this place you people have proved rebellious in your behavior with Jehovah." (Deuteronomy 9:7)

So, in conclusion, Jehovah led them by means of "his angel" and Moses. There is nothing to indicate that the angel in the cloud was Jehovah Himself. He has always guided events by means of His Spirit, and from His abode in heaven. (See I Kings 8:27,30,32,34,36,39,etc.)

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 66 by bjs]

The theories are many as to the exact pronunciation of the divine name; if you are trying to suggest there is a consensus on the matter that is far from the case. If anything though there is a leaning by modern day scholars to the three-syllable rendition rather than the two syllable Yahweh; making the Hebrew pronunciation of Yehowah and its english equivalent possibly closer to the original

(See George Wesley Buchanan; "How God's Name Was Pronounced", Biblical Archaeology Review Mar./Apr. 1995 Volume 21 Number 2; page 30. Harris, Archer, Waltke; "Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament" #484. James Trimm; "Nazarenes and the Name of YHWH," and "In Fame Only? A Historical Record of the Divine Name," by Gerard Gertoux)

But again, there is no academic wide consensus on that or which vowels, were used. In short, the only thing we can say for sure is we don't know for sure. Since this is the case what is considered "satisfying evidence" is just one more uncertain conclusion. In the end, as I said [here in post #22 ] (and I presume you will agree) which vowels and how they were pronounced is not the most important thing.

JW

I remember that comment in the Biblical Archaeology Review of 1995! He said it was more reasonable, to him, to pronounce the Tetragrammaton as "Jehovah." I've been trying to find that article for years, and now you've given me the info to find it. Thank you! I'll look up those other references as well.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

The material in the references you refer to here all refer to the OT, not the NT.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 75 by JehovahsWitness]

Speak for yourself. True, you have absolutely no background in any form of Greek scholarship, which is not surprising since the Watchtower society views higher education as apostasy anyway. That being teh case, you seem to be grasping at loose straws, hurriedly going online and grabbing up material which you do not seem to fully understand. I'm not trying to be nasty, just honest. For example, Colwell's Rule isn't the main issue here. The problem is that Greek has no indefinite articles. So is Jn. 1 best rendered with a definite or an indefinite article? That is the issue. What Metzger or any other scholar will tell you is that you have to go on the grammatical context to determine whether the indefinite article should be used. Note, I said the grammatical context, not the theological one. Whether or not you are Trinitarian has nothing to do with the situation here. Now, since Theos as used just previously in Jn. 1 has the definite article, it makes sense this same idea is carried over with its usage in the predicate nominative. Colwell is helpful here, since he found many instances where this is clearly the case. Note, I said helpful. Forgetting Colwell's rule, one would still arrive at the same conclusion that "a god" is not what the author intends here and is therefore an incorrect translation, one largely based on the anti-Trinitarian biases of the NWT translators.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 76 by 2timothy316]

But there are no references to the Tetragrammaton in the NT texts that we have. So, there is no hard evidence to back your conclusions.

[Checkpoint]

D. You wrote:

Also, in passages that speak of Hell and torment, the NWT reads "annihilation." That was done to bludgeon Scripture to fit their bias about the afterlife. It is one thing to disagree with Scripture. I respect that. it is quite another to corrupt the translation so that it agree with your position.

You need to give examples (including chapter and verse) of these 'bludgeoned' verses. Its true that JWs believe that the words 'sheol' and 'hades' (commonly translated elsewhere as hell) indicate no more than the common grave of mankind. In other words the bodies of the dead return to the dust in their graves. And 'Gehenna' (also often translated as hell) or the lake of fire is where those go who will not be resurrected - they merely cease to exist forever.

What is also true is that many modern translations tend to render "sheol" as "the grave".

[hoghead1]

[Replying to tigger2]

Your post is riddled with inaccuracies, which is to be expected. Let's consider tehn the context of your post. You are sympathies with the JW's. OK, fine, That is your privilege. However, it also casts aspersions on your level of scholarship and also respect for scholars. If there is one thing JW's abhor, it is higher education. That's why the Pew Foundation, 2008, conclude that JW's have the lost educational level and level of econ9imic income of any religious denomination in the US. That's not surprising, since Watchtower ideology views higher education as an unnecessary waste of time and a thing of the Devil anyway. Rev. Russell, one of teh key funders wrote, "I advise all Christians not to send their children to colleges or universities; for if they do, they will risk a great deal through infidelity and unbelief, and they will be doing their children a positive injury." This anti=intellectual theme is been echoed through countless JW publications. The "Watchtower," 1969, Nar, 15, p.171, states," Many schools now have guidance counselors who encourage one to pursue higher education after high school...Do not be influenced by them. Do not let them brainwash you with the Devil's propaganda." Again, on another anti-intellectual rant, the "Watchtower," 2008, 415, p.4, states, "What, though, of higher education, received in a university? This is widely viewed as vital to success. Yet many who pursue such education end up with their minds filled with harmful propaganda. Such education wastes valuable years that could be used in Jehovah's service." So, of course all Trinitarians, all biblical scholars, any anyone lese who dares disagree witht eh Watchtower society is going to be immediately written off as ignorant, brainwashed, didn't do their homework, was ruined by seminary training, etc. That's par for the course, the basic party line. The fact that the NWT has been rejected by every major seminary, every major religious denomination, and the vast majority of biblical scholars is simply written off as an example of how brainwashed everyone lese is, except, of course for the anti-intellectual JW's.

Now, at least Dr. Beduhn has academic credentials. However, these need to be examined more carefully. He is not a recognized NT scholar,, linguist, or scholar of Greek. HIs master's required only an intermediate level of Greek. He is employed largely as a professor of comparative cultural studies. He states himself that he is "not a theologian." His knowledge of Greek is suspicious, as he is faulted for real howlers in the linguistic community, such as saying that Greek is a male-based language. He does not agree that the author of Jn, is monotheistic in his thinking, a highly controversial point. He has said he prefers the translation " and the Word was divine," which he says opens up the possibility of Trinitarian interpretations.
So my suggestion is for you to stop pointing the fingers at others and get busy and do your homework. All I am finding in your posts is inflammatory, anti-intellectual rhetoric.

Ironically,

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 84 by Checkpoint]

You need to check back with the Scriptures more carefully. Sheol is not a place of annihilation. That is make very clear in teh case of Saul with the medium at Endor and also in Isa. 14:10, among others. LK. 16 makes it clear that hellfire does not annihilate oneself.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 78 by tigger2]

Your study of the Seven Lessons? If you think that qualifies you in any way here, you are sadly mistaken. All I am seeing so far is that you are confused about Colwell's Rule, don't know Greek, and are going on an anti-intellectual rant.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 84 by Checkpoint]

You need to check back with the Scriptures more carefully. Sheol is not a place of annihilation.

I have already, many times.

I did not say sheol is a place of annihilation, but that some translations have chosen "the grave" rather than "hell" for it.

That is make very clear in teh case of Saul with the medium at Endor and also in Isa. 14:10, among others. LK. 16 makes it clear that hellfire does not annihilate oneself.

These references are to something forbidden, to something that abounds in personification, and to the details of a parable rather than its intended message.

Certainly not any base to prove a point or confirm a belief.