The 144,000

[Checkpoint]

A question that is often debated, and it seems there are more that the usual two opinions or schools of thought.

The 144,000 are a group that is described in Revelation 7 and 14.

As we know, Revelation is itself a controversial book, largely because of its style and the language it uses.

Language that is sometimes literal and sometimes figurative or metaphorical. It is hard to know which best fits what is being portrayed.

Some see the 144,000 as being a literal number to be taken as literal Israelites.

Others see them as a symbolic number, and as being spiritual Israelites, meaning they are believers both Jew and Gentile.

Yet others have concluded that they are literally 144,000 yet they are not literal but spiritual Israelites.

What is your take, and why do you think that?

Revelation 7:

2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Revelation 14:

1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

[onewithhim]

Tammy wrote:

This is a good response as to why the number is taken literally. But that is not the question Checkpoint asked. I believe Checkpoint is asking,

"Why take the number literally, but NOT the tribes and Israel?"


Peace to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

You answered, in part:

Fair question. And the answer is: the tribes of Israel in Revelation 7 are not literal in the same way, for example, that the locusts in chapter 9 are not literal. JehovahsWitness posted excellent comments explaining why we take some things literally but most things symbolically in Revelation. Checkpoint is a sharp individual; I am surprised that he didn't remember the things that JW had said, and he seemed like "spiritual Israel" was a new thought to him.

"Spiritual Israel" is not a new thought to me. In fact it is a position I hold to strongly.

So I basically agree with the rest of your post.

What I do not agree with is how you apply it to JWs and others who have saving faith in Jesus Christ today.

In a very recent post (#14) you indicated that you were totally in the dark as to what JWs believed about the 144,000.....when we had discussed this very thing on another thread (see this thread that YOU started, "The Israel of God, Who is It?") . Had you completely forgotten that discussion? Do you wonder that I thought that maybe someone else had entered the discussion in your place?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 31 by onewithhim]

In a very recent post (#14) you indicated that you were totally in the dark as to what JWs believed about the 144,000.....when we had discussed this very thing on another thread (see this thread that YOU started, "The Israel of God, Who is It?") . Had you completely forgotten that discussion? Do you wonder that I thought that maybe someone else had entered the discussion in your place?

It was not a matter of whether or not I had forgotten a discussion on another thread, but that we were in a different thread.

Each thread has its own purpose and emphasis, and may have some different readers.

I ask questions to elicit answers, and then decide whether or not to respond. Don't you do that too?

[tam]

The 12 tribes mentioned in Revelation chapter 7 must refer to this spiritual Israel for several valid reasons.

1) The list does not match that of fleshly/natural Israel at Numbers chapter 1.

I responded to this in my first post, but to recap:

This is because of events that occurred during the history and evolution of the twelve tribes of Israel. Dan lost his portion, and Joseph received a double portion. Hence the listed tribes are not the same.

(all Israel will be saved, but not all Israel will rule with kings and priests with Christ in the Kingdom)

2) Jerusalem's temple and priesthood and all the tribal records of natural Israel were permanently destroyed, way before John had his vision (of the Revelation) in 96 A.D.

Does anyone think that God needs such records to know the location of every drop of blood from Israel?

If God doesn't need them, then why would John's vision need them?

3) Revelation was written after Pentecost of 33 A.D., and in light of this and events that had occurred in association with Jesus' words at Matthew 21:43 and Matthew 23:37,38 and Peter's words at I Peter 2:9,10, we can understand what John's vision indicated. In the 7th chapter, those standing on the heavenly Mt. Zion with the Lamb (whom natural Israel had rejected)

But not all natural Israel. A small remnant did not reject Him, but instead belonged to Him and received their anointing of holy spirit. Beginning with the apostles, and then those at Pentecost, etc.

revealed the number of this spiritual Israel, which was "bought from among mankind" (Rev.7:4; 14:1,4).

If anyone was from natural Israel (whether they knew it or not, God would know it) then they too would have been purchased from among mankind with the blood of Christ.

This Spiritual Israel of 144,000 was further described in chapter 5 of Revelation: "You [Jesus] bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth." (vs.9,10)

Would not the 12 tribes listed in the 144 000 be part of every tribe?



Here is the thing. There is nothing false in what I have shared even according to what you and others here accept:

1 - Spiritual Israel is made up of natural Israel as well as those who are Israel by faith in Christ (and His Father, the Most Holy One of Israel). We can KNOW this because the first who followed and belonged to God were two parts of Israel (Judah and Benjamin). The Samaritans who followed and belonged to God were also Israel (descended from the other ten tribes).


2 - We know that the life is in the blood and the blood speaks (the blood of Christ speaks, the blood of Abel speaks, and called out to God, etc). The blood can speak to us as well... but one example as an illustration would be that the blood tells us things via paternity tests, blood tests to determine ailments, genetics, etc. WE could determine who was from what tribe (and who might be intermixed between them) if we had blood samples preserved from the originals - Jacob, and his 12 sons.

Does anyone who professes to be Christian think that we could do something that God cannot?

God doesn't need the equipment, and his hearing is much more precise than ours.



God also promised on numerous occasions that He would reserve a remnant of Israel for Himself. Well, 144 000 from all the descendants of the tribes of Jacob EVER, is definitely a remnant of that number. Due to the promises given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - God has reserved a remnant from their offspring (Not just in faith and not just in blood, but in blood AND faith), in the 'seats' of the 144 000.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Checkpoint]

But "spirit begotten born again Christians" number far more than a mere 144,000!

You answered:

That is a matter of opinion.

Some opinions reflect truth; others do not.

It is my opinion that both you and I are "spirit-begotten born again Christians" by faith in Jesus Christ.

So who do JWs say are these "spiritual Israelites"?

Your answer was:

Sincere Christians throughout the ages that were chosen by God to have that special privilege. Nobody can say for sure, and I certainly cannot name them all, but we know that the first were the 120 Christians in Pentecost.

All believers are "spiritual Israelites". That includes us and so many others, both JWs and those who are not JWs.

And what of the many other Christians who are born again?

You replied with this answer:

Do you mean the man other Christians that are NOT born again? They will have the hope of living forever in paradise. I count myself as one that holds that hope.

There are no other Christians who are not born again.

If you are not born again you have not and will not enter the kingdom, or the paradise you hope for, or live forever.

Your hope is based on a doctrine and its application that was unknown before 1930.

It was formulated due to a major failed prophecy.

[JehovahsWitness]

If you are not born again you have not and will not enter the kingdom, or the paradise you hope for, or live forever.

That is your opinion, there is nothing in scripture that indicates your opinion is truth so I see no reason to accept it. I do however accept your right to believe sincerely you have the right to say who is born again and who is not, who will live forever and who will not live forever. Personally I leave those kind of decisions in the hands of Almighty God but of you are comfortable pronouncing those kind of judgements, that is between you and your Maker.

Please do your very best to have an excellent evening anyway,

goodbye.

JW

[Checkpoint]

On this thread issue I am opposed to the JWs. Not just on the number, but on what stems from this in JW doctrine.

So I take it you believe number to be symbolic, but symbolic of what? an infinitely HUGE number of individuals or a relatively small number of individuals? Or symbolic of nothing at all except the need to a blank page with writing?

Do you believe there is a link between the "Israel of God" and this number? And what do you believe is the destiny of this small/huge/meaningless symbolic number of people?

JW

What I believe, or have concluded, is very simple.

The passages in Chapter 7 of the 144,000 and then the multitude, are different descriptions of the exact same people.

God numbered them as 144,000, which is multiples of 10 and 12, both numbers that indicate perfection and completeness.

And that is something "no man can number".

Why have I drawn that conclusion? For two reasons.

1) John is introduced to the 144,000, by hearing the number only. He did not see them.

Then what happens?

He sees the multitude from all nations.

What he sees is those he had just heard about without seeing.

That is, "spiritual Israelites".

2) A comparison of the relevant passages in chapters 5,7, and 14 reveals that what is said of the 144,000 and the others is the same, even including some identical phrases and descriptions.

Finally, their destiny?

As described in Revelation 21 and 22.

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 28 by marco]

You debate well and have the right approach for putting down arrogant frivolity and I respect your patient explanations. I understand perfectly what you are saying: pieces of the puzzle fitting do indeed lead to happiness. I have worked on other puzzles, with the same sort of results.

Thanks for the compliment.
"arrogant frivolity"? Is there a lot of that here, do you think?

I do not doubt this. Many of us experience a "eureka" moment; the elements combine in us to give us joy at discovery and truth. I'm sure Muslims experience the same joy of discovery when they immerse themselves in the Koran. Philatelists gasp at some stamp they have found and ornithologists sigh at the sighting of a rare bird.

I could agree.

The idea that somebody dreamt of the number 144,000 and expressed his ideas in figurative language does not suggest truth to me, but superstition. African tribes actually SEE the leopard they conjure up in their ritual dances. Blessed are those who question, and do unto others what they would have done to themselves. I see no benefit in subjugating one's intellect to the ideas of very ordinary men, without question. But in the end if one extracts happiness and fulfilment from this, then who am I to say it is wrong?

Well, if one just accepts ideas, because they apeal to them, or accept things without question, that I would consider a perfect example of gullibility.
Notice, I said, when the pieces fall into place.
When we are fixing a puzzle, and we see the picture taking shape, we get that feeling of excitement, and our adrenaline might increase a bit, as we anticipate completing it - depending on how much we love puzzles.
A child may get a feeling of excitement when they put a few pieces in place, not because the pieces are in correctly, but because they feel they have done well.
The latter may illustrate the majority of people, but the former illustrates the ones who study the Bible with the right attitude, and help from Jehovah's people, and his spirit.

That can be said with confidence because in those 66 books, written by about 40 different individuals, over a period of about 1,600 years, one theme runs right through from beginning to end - just like the complete picture jigsawed into hundreds of pieces.
Therefore all the writings must agree. Once those pieces fit, the picture takes shape, and one gets to identify the truth.

Of course, many will say they have the truth, but how would one know?

For one thing, truth cannot contain lies -

• eternal torment in everlasting fire;
• immortal soul;
• three gods in one (trinity).

This is like the child who forces the puzzle pieces in wrong, and distorts the picture - causing it to appear confusing and hideous.

For another, truth must involve God's purpose - eternal life on earth under his sovereignty, and the glorifying of his name.


Puzzle solved.

One can easily tell when a puzzle is correctly put together, can't they?
Ask yourself:

• Who teaches eternal torment by a supposedly loving God?
  To name a few - Buddhism; Hinduism; Christendom...
• Who teaches the immortality of the soul?
  To name a few - Buddhism; Hinduism; Christendom...
• Who teaches worship of a triune God?
  To name a few - Hinduism; Christendom...
  Are any of these taught in the Bible? We need to examine the evidence for ourselves.
  
  Who follows the example of the master and founder of Christianity - Jesus Christ?
  • His message - The good news of the Kingdom of God.
  • His method - Preaching everywhere in ever village, town, and city, with urgency and zeal.
  • Without retirement.
  Again, we need to examine the evidence for ourselves.

I obviously am one of Jehovah's Witnesses, because I believe the evidence shows that they have got the picture right - not distorted.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 31 by onewithhim]

In a very recent post (#14) you indicated that you were totally in the dark as to what JWs believed about the 144,000.....when we had discussed this very thing on another thread (see this thread that YOU started, "The Israel of God, Who is It?") . Had you completely forgotten that discussion? Do you wonder that I thought that maybe someone else had entered the discussion in your place?

It was not a matter of whether or not I had forgotten a discussion on another thread, but that we were in a different thread.

Each thread has its own purpose and emphasis, and may have some different readers.

I ask questions to elicit answers, and then decide whether or not to respond. Don't you do that too?

Why not just keep your post "The Israel of God" going, instead of starting up a completely new thread on the exact same topic?

[onewithhim]

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

So I take it that you do not believe in "Spiritual Israel."

Tell me, who was Peter writing to in his first letter?

[tam]

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

So I take it that you do not believe in "Spiritual Israel."

Tell me, who was Peter writing to in his first letter?

How can you ask this question?

From my post:

1 - Spiritual Israel is made up of natural Israel as well as those who are Israel by faith in Christ (and His Father, the Most Holy One of Israel).

I apologize because perhaps this is where the confusion came in:

We can KNOW this because the first who followed and belonged to God were two parts of Israel (Judah and Benjamin). The Samaritans who followed and belonged to God were also Israel (descended from the other ten tribes).

I meant to write "belonged to CHRIST" (which of course means that they belong to God)





Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy