Evangelicals vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

[Elijah John]

Evangelicals often call Jehovah's Witnesses, a "cult" and not Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses, seem to consider Roman Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox etc, "not-Christian" (JWs please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Question for debate, why can't all of these groups rightly be considered "Christian"?

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

[JehovahsWitness]

The only Bible translation that renders Jn. 1 as saying "a god" is the New World translation.

That is untrue. Further, The Jehovah's Witnesses are not a translator bound religion, meaning that JWs are happy to preach to people using their own copy of the bible and in most discussion threads such as here, will constantly refer to other translations, I personally rarely refer to the NWT when making non-related posts.

Regarding the specific point as to the rendition of John 1:1, you might like to know it has been addressed in detail in a thread set up specifically for this purpose which you can read here. If I wanted to discuss this issue there is where I would do so.

I have also noted that this forum has a sub-forum that exists to ask posters or even individuals about their beliefs , I'm sure if anyone posted a question there about the Jehovah's Witness manuals and workbooks, one of Jehovah's Witnesses will see it.

JW



Official Jehovah's Witness website
https://www.jw.org/en/

[ttruscott]

Mankind had no Savior until Jesus died without any sin:

I love the one where Jesus paid our "ransom" for sin to his own father. Christians buy into this ultimate expression of Stockholm Syndrome.

Early Christians and the Church Fathers thought he paid the ransom to Satan to free us from bondage to sin and death.

Oh, wait! That's what is written in the scriptures . . .

Just where is it written or implied "he paid the ransom to Satan", please?

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 209 by JehovahsWitness]

OK, thanks for pointing out this other thread. Meanwhile, can you tell me the name of the other major translation that uses "a god." Note, by Bible translation, I mean a Bible, not some reference in a biblical commentary, a major published edition of the Bible?

[JehovahsWitness]

Just where is it written or implied "he paid the ransom to Satan", please?

Good question, especially as onewithim pointed out the bible explicitly states the ransom was paid to God. Justice demanded a ransom, Satan may have caused the problem but Jehovah was the solution.

[McCulloch]

Just where is it written or implied "he paid the ransom to Satan", please?

Good question, especially as onewithim pointed out the bible explicitly states the ransom was paid to God. Justice demanded a ransom, Satan may have caused the problem but Jehovah was the solution.

It is an easy mistake to make. Think about what a ransom is. Ransom is the practice of holding a prisoner or item to extort money or property to secure their release, or it may refer to the sum of money involved. The person to whom the ransom is paid, is an extortionist, "I will free the prisoner, if the ransom is paid." We don't like to think of God as being an extortionist, so many wrongly conclude that Satan is the jailer extorting the ransom.

[catnip]

Mankind had no Savior until Jesus died without any sin:

I love the one where Jesus paid our "ransom" for sin to his own father. Christians buy into this ultimate expression of Stockholm Syndrome.

Early Christians and the Church Fathers thought he paid the ransom to Satan to free us from bondage to sin and death.

Oh, wait! That's what is written in the scriptures . . .

So you're agreeing with that? That is way off, I must say. Where does the Bible say that Jesus paid the ransom to Satan???

The fact of it is that Jesus presented the value of his ransom to Jehovah, the Father:

"When Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come to pass, through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, he entered, not with the blood of goats and bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place and obtained an everlasting deliverance for us." (Hebrews 9:11,12)

So who accepted his blood sacrifice and who provided deliverance for us (because of His acceptance of Jesus' ransom sacrifice)? Hint: NOT Satan.

Note that I am a student of the early church, and I do not always purport what I personally believe. Our faith has changed a lot in the past 2000 years and not for the better. I think the "us against them" attitude exhibited here is a failure of faith. You are jumping on a playful comment on the early history of the faith.

Ransom theory was, without being claimed as an atonement theory, the prevailing view of the early church and the Church Fathers for the first thousand years, thus Christus Victor--or I could call it that rather than ransom theory. It didn't necessarily mention Satan, but pointed out that Jesus ransomed us from sin and death. A ransom is paid to free another from the enemy. Bondage is also a word that indicates being held captive and God has never held us captive. Jesus says in John: "Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin." "You can't serve two masters . . . "


It was based on Mark 10:45 (but do note that they were not strictly Bible Believin' Christians in those days): 45 For the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.�

And Timothy 2:5-6 45 For the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.�

As Paul says: Romans 6:16 Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?

If there is anything that I am saying here it is that the focus on substitutionary atonement has been detrimental to the faith.

[ttruscott]

Just where is it written or implied "he paid the ransom to Satan", please?

Good question, especially as onewithim pointed out the bible explicitly states the ransom was paid to God. Justice demanded a ransom, Satan may have caused the problem but Jehovah was the solution.

It is an easy mistake to make. Think about what a ransom is. Ransom is the practice of holding a prisoner or item to extort money or property to secure their release, or it may refer to the sum of money involved. The person to whom the ransom is paid, is an extortionist, "I will free the prisoner, if the ransom is paid." We don't like to think of God as being an extortionist, so many wrongly conclude that Satan is the jailer extorting the ransom.

The world also means "what is given in exchange for another as the price of his redemption" which has no idea of extortion or holding hostage. Take care putting too strong an English spin on interpretive translations.

To Redeem:
Source: Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary
: to make (something that is bad, unpleasant, etc.) better or more acceptable
: to exchange (something, such as a coupon or lottery ticket) for money, an award, etc.
: to buy back (something, such as a stock or bond)

[onewithhim]

Mankind had no Savior until Jesus died without any sin:

I love the one where Jesus paid our "ransom" for sin to his own father. Christians buy into this ultimate expression of Stockholm Syndrome.

Early Christians and the Church Fathers thought he paid the ransom to Satan to free us from bondage to sin and death.

Oh, wait! That's what is written in the scriptures . . .

So you're agreeing with that? That is way off, I must say. Where does the Bible say that Jesus paid the ransom to Satan???

The fact of it is that Jesus presented the value of his ransom to Jehovah, the Father:

"When Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come to pass, through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, he entered, not with the blood of goats and bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place and obtained an everlasting deliverance for us." (Hebrews 9:11,12)

So who accepted his blood sacrifice and who provided deliverance for us (because of His acceptance of Jesus' ransom sacrifice)? Hint: NOT Satan.

Note that I am a student of the early church, and I do not always purport what I personally believe. Our faith has changed a lot in the past 2000 years and not for the better. I think the "us against them" attitude exhibited here is a failure of faith. You are jumping on a playful comment on the early history of the faith.

Ransom theory was, without being claimed as an atonement theory, the prevailing view of the early church and the Church Fathers for the first thousand years, thus Christus Victor--or I could call it that rather than ransom theory. It didn't necessarily mention Satan, but pointed out that Jesus ransomed us from sin and death. A ransom is paid to free another from the enemy. Bondage is also a word that indicates being held captive and God has never held us captive. Jesus says in John: "Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin." "You can't serve two masters . . . "


It was based on Mark 10:45 (but do note that they were not strictly Bible Believin' Christians in those days): 45 For the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.�

And Timothy 2:5-6 45 For the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.�

As Paul says: Romans 6:16 Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?

If there is anything that I am saying here it is that the focus on substitutionary atonement has been detrimental to the faith.

I am not "jumping" on anything that doesn't deserve to be immediately addressed. The early Church never taught that Satan was the one to whom the Messiah should sacrifice himself. You said that the faith has changed in the last 2,000 years and not for the better. You are correct. As I said, the early Church clearly believed that it was to God that the ransom be paid, as I brought out in Hebrews 9:11,12.

God has held us captive, but not according to His heart-felt desire. He has been following His own rules, and He doesn't ignore His own rules. The rule applicable here is that if Adam stole fruit off the one tree in the GoE that Jehovah reserved for Himself, he would die. Adam was duly warned. That first human knew exactly what would happen if he took the fruit. He did it, apparently to exert his independence, and suffered the consequences. Another rule or law that God made was if you jump off a cliff you will fall downward.....the law of gravity. The law to leave the one tree alone was just as important as respecting the law of gravity.

Adam disobeyed, causing the introduction of death to everyone else born through him. He could not have perfect children that would live forever, because he was no longer perfect (and would die as a result). The ransom WAS paid to free us from an enemy--- death. That is what the enemy has been. Our enemy is not God, but death. God is the only one who can cause death and the only one who can take it away. (When humans were first created, death was not known. No one had died, and no one was created to die. God caused death to happen because of the rule He gave to Adam, which Adam disobeyed.) So if God is the one who can take death away, then it is to Him that the ransom must be paid.

To think that God has enjoyed all this, or gained anything from it, is to believe falsely. He merely followed through on what He told Adam would be the consequences of disobedience.

[catnip]

Mankind had no Savior until Jesus died without any sin:

I love the one where Jesus paid our "ransom" for sin to his own father. Christians buy into this ultimate expression of Stockholm Syndrome.

Early Christians and the Church Fathers thought he paid the ransom to Satan to free us from bondage to sin and death.

Oh, wait! That's what is written in the scriptures . . .

So you're agreeing with that? That is way off, I must say. Where does the Bible say that Jesus paid the ransom to Satan???

The fact of it is that Jesus presented the value of his ransom to Jehovah, the Father:

"When Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come to pass, through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, he entered, not with the blood of goats and bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place and obtained an everlasting deliverance for us." (Hebrews 9:11,12)

So who accepted his blood sacrifice and who provided deliverance for us (because of His acceptance of Jesus' ransom sacrifice)? Hint: NOT Satan.

Note that I am a student of the early church, and I do not always purport what I personally believe. Our faith has changed a lot in the past 2000 years and not for the better. I think the "us against them" attitude exhibited here is a failure of faith. You are jumping on a playful comment on the early history of the faith.

Ransom theory was, without being claimed as an atonement theory, the prevailing view of the early church and the Church Fathers for the first thousand years, thus Christus Victor--or I could call it that rather than ransom theory. It didn't necessarily mention Satan, but pointed out that Jesus ransomed us from sin and death. A ransom is paid to free another from the enemy. Bondage is also a word that indicates being held captive and God has never held us captive. Jesus says in John: "Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin." "You can't serve two masters . . . "


It was based on Mark 10:45 (but do note that they were not strictly Bible Believin' Christians in those days): 45 For the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.�

And Timothy 2:5-6 45 For the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.�

As Paul says: Romans 6:16 Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?

If there is anything that I am saying here it is that the focus on substitutionary atonement has been detrimental to the faith.

God has held us captive, but not according to His heart-felt desire. He has been following His own rules, and He doesn't ignore His own rules. The rule applicable here is that if Adam stole fruit off the one tree in the GoE that Jehovah reserved for Himself, he would die. Adam was duly warned. That first human knew exactly what would happen if he took the fruit. He did it, apparently to exert his independence, and suffered the consequences. Another rule or law that God made was if you jump off a cliff you will fall downward.....the law of gravity. The law to leave the one tree alone was just as important as respecting the law of gravity.

God has never held us captive! This is why so many Christians make a big deal of Free Will. Apparently, you need to read about Adam and Eve in Genesis. You don't know the story. Adam didn't pick the fruit. Eve, who had been convinced by the serpent--later considered to be Satan--picked the fruit and then told Adam to try it. There is not one thing in that paragraph that is true to scripture. The teachings or what we call the Law of the Torah has nothing to do with scientific laws such as gravity.

Adam disobeyed, causing the introduction of death to everyone else born through him. He could not have perfect children that would live forever, because he was no longer perfect (and would die as a result). The ransom WAS paid to free us from an enemy--- death. That is what the enemy has been. Our enemy is not God, but death. God is the only one who can cause death and the only one who can take it away. (When humans were first created, death was not known. No one had died, and no one was created to die. God caused death to happen because of the rule He gave to Adam, which Adam disobeyed.) So if God is the one who can take death away, then it is to Him that the ransom must be paid.

This is such a mess! When we sin we die spiritually. Jesus speaks of eternal life vs death--and so does Paul: we can be dead in our sin. Jesus says to the wanna-be disciple: Leave the dead to bury the dead. Satan is the tempter and therefore it is Satan which causes us to die through sin. (Note: as a Liberal Christian I see Satan as the embodiment of evil but not as a real being and I compare Satan to the collective ego). But the ancients actually did attribute sin to Satan.

To think that God has enjoyed all this, or gained anything from it, is to believe falsely. He merely followed through on what He told Adam would be the consequences of disobedience.

Then begin by studying (moderators may not have noticed how you hide insults in emoticons, but I have seen it). Here is an excellent article from GotQuestions.org on Atonement theories including Ransom theory:

https://gotquestions.org/atonement-theories.html

[onewithhim]

Please really read my post. I have explained why we are "captive" to God's law that He gave to Adam (and thus to his descendants) that he would suffer DEATH if he disobeyed.

I would appreciate a thoughtful response after you have read my post, once again, meditatively. Thanks.

Also would you comment on JehovahsWitness's video about "Why Did Jesus Die?"? I look forward to your replies.