Other religions..

[Elijah John]

For debate, (addressed primarily to Theists) :

Do you see other religions, (and people who practice other religions) as enemies? Competitors? Or allies in the quest to bring people to God and His ways?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 69 by JehovahsWitness]




[center]
Fallacious Religious Reasoning:
When it comes to dealing with ISIS.. it's "love thy neighbor".
Part One[/center]

And today, what should the civilized world do about ISIS?

The "civilized" world will make their own way, but Christians should continue to follow christian law come what may and Christian law is unequivocal: they have been commanded by their leader to "Love their enemies".

As Elijah John asked what should the civilized CHRISTIAN world do about ISIS?
Just love them to bits?

Let them kill as many people as they like?
And love them as they do that?

I say.. we should maybe think of stopping ISIS.
You can go ahead and "love" them, if you find them so lovable, AND try to stop them.

In a world steeped in war and violence, those that obey God's command (not only in peace time when everyone is a "lover not a fighter" because the government says that's okay) but when their country declares war on their enemies.

That was a little vague, if you ask me.

____________

Questions:

• 
  1. Is there anything ELSE that Christians can do about ISIS than love ISIS?
  2. ISIS is killing innocents ... what should the world DO about that?
  3. Is pacifism always the best IDEA?
  4. To stand idly by, while telling us that you LOVE ISIS while they blatantly murder many people for religious reasons ( so they may claim ) ... is immoral to me. How is it moral to not do anything about ISIS?
  5. How is saying "love thy neighbor" more than a platitude when it comes to the ISIS problem?

____________

[JehovahsWitness]

I will wait for Jesus Christ to end the insanity. All signs point to him coming very soon.

Amen to that! Jesus himself with the heavenly forces will end the madness with the final and ultimate "just war"; human wars are more often than not the result of manipulation of politicians and businessmen, many times the same ones financing and profiting from both sides at the same time. War is a rich man's game, and a very profitable one at that; and the world's religions have done nothing but facilitate it.

[Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witnesses and other pacifists here, I still haven't gotten an answer to this one. (unless I missed something).

Given that Hitler DID rise to power, (and remember, the US had nothing to do with his rise) what SHOULD the US and the Allies have done in light of the fact that he was systematically murdering Jews, Gypsies and Jehovah's Witnesses?

What if the Allies had NOT waged war against Adolph Hitler and the Nazis?

[JehovahsWitness]

Jehovah's Witnesses and other pacifists here, I still haven't gotten an answer to this one. (unless I missed something).

Given that Hitler DID rise to power, (and remember, the US had nothing to do with his rise) what SHOULD the US and the Allies have done in light of the fact that he was systematically murdering Jews, Gypsies and Jehovah's Witnesses?

They should have obeyed Christ's command to love their enemies. All humans should obey Christ and God.

What if the Allies had NOT waged war against Adolph Hitler and the Nazis?

Maybe we would all be speaking German now.



JW

[onewithhim]

And today, what should the civilized world do about ISIS?

The "civilized" world will make their own way, but Christians should continue to follow christian law come what may and Christian law is unequivocal: they have been commanded by their leader to "Love their enemies". Indeed love would be one of the main identifying marks of True Christianity. In a world steeped in war and violence, those that obey God's command (not only in peace time when everyone is a "lover not a fighter" because the government says that's okay) but when their country declares war on their enemies.

Remember, JWs and other pacifists enjoy the protection of the West, a protection bought with the blood of war.

Jehovah's Witnesses live in all countries and territories on this our planet earth under all the different regimes and we have prospered; we put this down not to any human initiatives but to Jehovah our God. That is not to say we don't appreciate the freedoms held out by democratic and free societies as typified by the West but we simply cannot compromise our Christian neutrality, take up arms to kill our fellow man and possibly our own Christian brothers in another country, or support human wars as this would represent for us a violation of Christian law and principle.

Are we living off the "blood" of those that did? No, firstly because as a group we live in the territories of both sides of any conflict and also because we as a group have paid the ultimate price for our neutrality many times over with the blood of our own men, women and children. We have not fought with swords and guns but we have stood up and been counted as those that refused to support regimes that were bent on destroying the lives of others. None of our German or Japanese brothers killed American or British soldiers, even if refusing to do so cost them their lives.

There is indeed a bravery in standing up for "King and Country" as typified by many men and women in the military; we just have a different King and country.




JW

Excellent. That is what I have tried to make clear to people for years....that to fight and kill people of "enemy nations" would mean killing our own spiritual brothers who live in those nations. Jehovah's Witnesses in Germany, for example, were required to fight against the Allies. It is obvious that it was a very good thing that they did not agree to do this. As JW said, they resisted, at the expense of their own lives. Many of our brothers were horribly tortured, shot, and beheaded.

Because of that, Jehovah's Witnesses have not prospered off of the blood of Allied soldiers. We gave our blood so as not to harm anyone, including Allied soldiers. In America, many of our brothers were put in prison for refusing to fight. Some democracy. Freedom of religion? LOL. We have also been tarred and feathered and beaten, right here in the U.S.A. Even now, if there was the draft, brothers would be imprisoned for not joining the military.

Anyway, not one American life was lost at the hand of one of Jehovah's Witnesses in the Axis countries. Not one. Can a Catholic say that? Or a Lutheran, or a Baptist, or a Methodist, or a Mormon or an Episcopalian (or any other religion) that lived in the Axis nations?

[Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witnesses and other pacifists here, I still haven't gotten an answer to this one. (unless I missed something).

Given that Hitler DID rise to power, (and remember, the US had nothing to do with his rise) what SHOULD the US and the Allies have done in light of the fact that he was systematically murdering Jews, Gypsies and Jehovah's Witnesses?

They should have obeyed Christ's command to love their enemies. All humans should obey Christ and God.

What if the Allies had NOT waged war against Adolph Hitler and the Nazis?

Maybe we would all be speaking German now.



JW

Speaking German would be the most benign implication of a would have been Nazi victory. The Nazis were anything but benign.

And a more likely one is that there would be no more Jews, Gypsies or Jehovah's Witnesses in the German Empire to learn the new language.

It's all well and good to love one's enemies, but what if one's enemies do not embrace the same ethic, and would rather murder instead?

Such was Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. Such today is ISIS.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 70 by catnip]

It is not the government and politics that I "have purely derided." My beef has always been mainly and pointedly with the leaders of RELIGIONS that have not taught the people of the world the truth about what Christ expects of us. The churches have been in bed with politicians for centuries, and have done nothing to stand up against the evils of war and other terrible things, to further their own gains in power and wealth.

As Mahatma Ghandi once said, "If everyone on Earth followed the teachings found in the Sermon on the Mount, there would be no war."

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 74 by JehovahsWitness]




[center]The horror of pacifism:
Part One[/center]

Given that Hitler DID rise to power, (and remember, the US had nothing to do with his rise) what SHOULD the US and the Allies have done in light of the fact that he was systematically murdering Jews, Gypsies and Jehovah's Witnesses?

They should have obeyed Christ's command to love their enemies. All humans should obey Christ and God.

What if the Allies had NOT waged war against Adolph Hitler and the Nazis?

Maybe we would all be speaking German now.

What a horrific euphemism !!!

How horrific, and even worse, the blissful euphemism to call the consequences of a loss for the ALLIES "Speaking German" !!! This to me, is an example of how religiously motivated morality just does not WORK.

I'm shocked.

______________

Questions:

• 1.Are you saying that you would stand IDLY by as millions of people were exterminated like vermin?
  2. Are you saying that you would obey NAZI LAW and throw the children into the furnaces if you were called upon?
  3. Do you think it's a good idea to be so glib about such a horrific regime?

______________

[Blastcat]

[center]

Ghandi the wonderful exaggerator
[/center]

As Mahatma Ghandi once said, "If everyone on Earth followed the teachings found in the Sermon on the Mount, there would be no war."

Well, they don't all follow it, never have.
Ghandi was just blowing hot air when he said that.

A nice bit of rhetoric.
No proof, of course.

[catnip]

[Replying to post 70 by catnip]

It is not the government and politics that I "have purely derided." My beef has always been mainly and pointedly with the leaders of RELIGIONS that have not taught the people of the world the truth about what Christ expects of us. The churches have been in bed with politicians for centuries, and have done nothing to stand up against the evils of war and other terrible things, to further their own gains in power and wealth.

Most churches do teach what Christ taught. That is the tradition. It is not required as an individual choice. On the other hand, Jesus did not apparently always teach only pacifism. And even though he didn't want any violence in his defense when he was arrested, he had warned his disciples to have swords--obviously for self-defense.

Luke 22: 36-38 36 He said to them, But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you dont have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: And he was numbered with the transgressors; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.

38 The disciples said, See, Lord, here are two swords.

Thats enough! he replied.

Jesus also complimented the faith of the Roman Centurion who asked that he heal his servant.

As Mahatma Ghandi once said, "If everyone on Earth followed the teachings found in the Sermon on the Mount, there would be no war."

And I admire Ghandi tremendously. On the other hand, pacifism didn't stop Hitler from invading Poland. The U.S. stayed out of the WWII until it became apparent that we were involved whether we wanted to be or not.

And again: We are not speaking of the individual choice as to whether or not to fight but about our Nation's right and responsibility to defend us militarily. You are welcome to make the choice for pacifism as are others who do at different levels. Our nation makes allowance for that to an extent and there are other purely pacifist groups such as the Quakers (Friends) and the Anabaptists. But individuals from any church or religion can and do claim to be Conscientious Objectors. Although most will choose to serve in a useful capacity during war, in non-combatant roles. I especially admire those who choose to put their lives on the line in an effort to save the wounded as medics and ambulance drivers.