Other religions..

[Elijah John]

For debate, (addressed primarily to Theists) :

Do you see other religions, (and people who practice other religions) as enemies? Competitors? Or allies in the quest to bring people to God and His ways?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 70 by catnip]

It is not the government and politics that I "have purely derided." My beef has always been mainly and pointedly with the leaders of RELIGIONS that have not taught the people of the world the truth about what Christ expects of us. The churches have been in bed with politicians for centuries, and have done nothing to stand up against the evils of war and other terrible things, to further their own gains in power and wealth.

Most churches do teach what Christ taught. That is the tradition. It is not required as an individual choice. On the other hand, Jesus did not apparently always teach only pacifism. And even though he didn't want any violence in his defense when he was arrested, he had warned his disciples to have swords--obviously for self-defense.

Luke 22: 36-38 36 He said to them, But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you dont have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: And he was numbered with the transgressors; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.

38 The disciples said, See, Lord, here are two swords.

Thats enough! he replied.

Jesus also complimented the faith of the Roman Centurion who asked that he heal his servant.

As Mahatma Ghandi once said, "If everyone on Earth followed the teachings found in the Sermon on the Mount, there would be no war."

And I admire Ghandi tremendously. On the other hand, pacifism didn't stop Hitler from invading Poland. The U.S. stayed out of the WWII until it became apparent that we were involved whether we wanted to be or not.

And again: We are not speaking of the individual choice as to whether or not to fight but about our Nation's right and responsibility to defend us militarily. You are welcome to make the choice for pacifism as are others who do at different levels. Our nation makes allowance for that to an extent and there are other purely pacifist groups such as the Quakers (Friends) and the Anabaptists. But individuals from any church or religion can and do claim to be Conscientious Objectors. Although most will choose to serve in a useful capacity during war, in non-combatant roles. I especially admire those who choose to put their lives on the line in an effort to save the wounded as medics and ambulance drivers.

Sounds like you have read the book Zealot? Reza Aslan makes a similar case that Jesus was not entirely a pacifist.

[JehovahsWitness]

Speaking German would be the most benign implication of a would have been Nazi victory. The Nazis were anything but benign.

And a more likely one is that there would be no more Jews, Gypsies or Jehovah's Witnesses in the German Empire to learn the new language.

I am aware of this. The language was presented as symbolic of the dominance of a particular power (conquering forces even in ancient times sought to surpress the language of their conquered peoples as it represented their independence and their ties to the past as well as assured integration into the impossed system). So I refered to the language as representative of domination and the cost in freedoms and lifestyle (even the literal lives of some) that that domination would entail.

And a more likely one is that there would be no more Jews, Gypsies or Jehovah's Witnesses in the German Empire to learn the new language.

I cannot speak for Jews and Gypsies but I can for Jehovah's witnesses. Jehovah has provided an assurance in scripture that he would protect them as a people. In other words that no power on earth will ever be able to wipe this group completely out of existence. (Those individuals that die are "alive" to him in his memory and will be restored to life). That is a guarantee in the bible that I, and all Jehovah's Witnesses believe, so no, whatever the outcome, whoever the governing powers, whoever wins whatever war, there will always be Jehovah's Witnesses on earth.

ISAIAH 54:7
No weapon formed against thee prospereth, And every tongue rising against thee, In judgment thou condemnest. This is the inheritance of the servants of Jehovah, And their righteousness from me, an affirmation of Jehovah! - Young's Literal Translation

It's all well and good to love one's enemies, but what if one's enemies do not embrace the same ethic, and would rather murder instead? Such was Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. Such today is ISIS.

I think I have answered the question several times already: The answer is once more, regardless of the circumstance: Christians should obey Jesus' command.*




JW

*NOTE: This is not just empty theorizing on the part of Jehvah's Witensses, the history of JWs in modern times has been marked by many totalitarian regimes attempting to wipe them out; the reality of their continued existence (and often even increase) under such regimes, is a testimony to the truth of the above statement.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 82 by JehovahsWitness]

Seems to me that you are only telling what Jehovah's Witnesses, and true Christians should do (or not do) in the face of unspeakable persecution.

I'm asking what the Allies SHOULD have done. Let Hitler murder more Jews, Gypsies and Jehovah's Witnesses?

Could it be that the Allies were instruments OF Jehovah in destroying the Third Reich thus saving Jews, Gypsies and Jehovah's Witnesses?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 82 by JehovahsWitness]

Seems to me that you are only telling what Jehovah's Witnesses, and true Christians should do (or not do) in the face of unspeakable persecution.

I'm asking what the Allies SHOULD have done. Let Hitler murder more Jews, Gypsies and Jehovah's Witnesses?

Could it be that the Allies were instruments OF Jehovah in destroying the Third Reich thus saving Jews, Gypsies and Jehovah's Witnesses?

The Allied forces should have put down their guns and obeyed the instructions from Jehovah as communicated through his Son Jesus Christ. All humans that are on earth should obey their Creator and His son Jesus and if I am not mistaken the Allied forces are made up of humans.

Let Hitler murder more Jews, Gypsies and Jehovah's Witnesses? Yes, if that is the price of obedience to God so be it.


JW

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 82 by JehovahsWitness]

Seems to me that you are only telling what Jehovah's Witnesses, and true Christians should do (or not do) in the face of unspeakable persecution.

I'm asking what the Allies SHOULD have done. Let Hitler murder more Jews, Gypsies and Jehovah's Witnesses?

Could it be that the Allies were instruments OF Jehovah in destroying the Third Reich thus saving Jews, Gypsies and Jehovah's Witnesses?

The Allied forces should have put down their guns and obeyed the instructions from Jehovah as communicated through his Son Jesus Christ. All humans that are on earth should obey their Creator and His son Jesus and if I am not mistaken the Allied forces are made up of humans.

Let Hitler murder more Jews, Gypsies and Jehovah's Witnesses? Yes, if that is the price of obedience to God so be it.


JW

And so too then, is it fair to conclude that you believe that the US and the rest of the civilized world should allow ISIS to torture, drown, burn and crucify Christians and others? We should not oppose them by force of arms?

Isn't it that a bit like saying a surgeon should never use a knife?

[JehovahsWitness]

And so too then, is it fair to conclude that you believe that the US and the rest of the civilized world should allow ISIS to torture, drown, burn and crucify Christians and others?

No, if we can help by providing hiding or a means of escape to those in danger then we should do that. If it comes to taking anothers life, under any circumstance then abusolutely no.

We should not oppose them by force of arms?

If those "arms" are sprititual, ie the bible then yes. If those arms are physical then no.


Isn't it that a bit like saying a surgeon should never use a knife?

No. Surgeons have not be prohibited by God to use their skills. Christians have been prohibited from killing their enemies, they have been told to love them.


JW

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 82 by JehovahsWitness]

Seems to me that you are only telling what Jehovah's Witnesses, and true Christians should do (or not do) in the face of unspeakable persecution.

I'm asking what the Allies SHOULD have done. Let Hitler murder more Jews, Gypsies and Jehovah's Witnesses?

Could it be that the Allies were instruments OF Jehovah in destroying the Third Reich thus saving Jews, Gypsies and Jehovah's Witnesses?

No, and I believe that I have responded to that whole line of thinking regarding that issue. It goes way back before the World Wars even started. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to think that God would not be involved in WWII or any war.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 82 by JehovahsWitness]

Seems to me that you are only telling what Jehovah's Witnesses, and true Christians should do (or not do) in the face of unspeakable persecution.

I'm asking what the Allies SHOULD have done. Let Hitler murder more Jews, Gypsies and Jehovah's Witnesses?

Could it be that the Allies were instruments OF Jehovah in destroying the Third Reich thus saving Jews, Gypsies and Jehovah's Witnesses?

The Allied forces should have put down their guns and obeyed the instructions from Jehovah as communicated through his Son Jesus Christ. All humans that are on earth should obey their Creator and His son Jesus and if I am not mistaken the Allied forces are made up of humans.

Let Hitler murder more Jews, Gypsies and Jehovah's Witnesses? Yes, if that is the price of obedience to God so be it.


JW

And the Allies all had spiritual brothers in Germany and Japan and Italy, etc. Was Jesus talking to trees when he said, "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another [or, as some versions have it, 'among yourselves']." (John 13:35)

That is incontrovertible. There is no room for making excuses to go out of line with his teaching. Jesus said that his true disciples would love one another. This cannot allow for killing Germans and Italians and Japanese because one's nation tells him to do so. Along with killing enemies one's spiritual brothers would be killed as well. Neither is OK with God or his Son.

As JW said, there is no fear among Jehovah's Witnesses that they might be killed. There was no dread among the JWs in Hitler's camps. We know that Jehovah will bring us back to life again on Earth (and some in heaven), should we die. It's no problem for him. We trust him.

[onewithhim]

And so too then, is it fair to conclude that you believe that the US and the rest of the civilized world should allow ISIS to torture, drown, burn and crucify Christians and others?

No, if we can help by providing hiding or a means of escape to those in danger then we should do that. If it comes to taking anothers life, under any circumstance then abusolutely no.

We should not oppose them by force of arms?

If those "arms" are sprititual, ie the bible then yes. If those arms are physical then no.


Isn't it that a bit like saying a surgeon should never use a knife?

No. Surgeons have not be prohibited by God to use their skills. Christians have been prohibited from killing their enemies, they have been told to love them.


JW

That is true.

"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses [or, 'strongly entrenched things']," (2 Corinthians 10:3,4, NASB)

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 82 by JehovahsWitness]

Seems to me that you are only telling what Jehovah's Witnesses, and true Christians should do (or not do) in the face of unspeakable persecution.

I'm asking what the Allies SHOULD have done. Let Hitler murder more Jews, Gypsies and Jehovah's Witnesses?

Could it be that the Allies were instruments OF Jehovah in destroying the Third Reich thus saving Jews, Gypsies and Jehovah's Witnesses?

No, and I believe that I have responded to that whole line of thinking regarding that issue. It goes way back before the World Wars even started. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to think that God would not be involved in WWII or any war.

Except, of course, the wars in the "Old" Testament. How is that consistent? Were the Nazis any better than the ancient Canaanites? Any less deserving of God's wrathful intervention against them? At least the ancient Egyptians "only" enslaved the ancient Hebrews...the Nazi's systematically murdered them.

And didn't the Almighty use King Cyrus and the Persian armies to defeat the Babylonians and liberate the Jewish people?