Smokers need not apply...

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Elijah John
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Smokers need not apply...

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

(Luke 5.31)
And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are in health have no need of a physician; but they that are sick.
One of our Jehovah's Witnesses said that smokers cannot be baptized and become members of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Even, apparently, smokers who want to quit. They have to have already kicked the habit.

Seems this criteria could be extended to ALL who are struggling with their bad habits.

For debate:

In light of Luke 5.31, how Christian is this exclusionary attitude and requirement?

Should Christian groups welcome of exclude those who are still struggling with their bad habits?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Smokers need not apply...

Post #2

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

We all have some bad habits, smoking however is one that is life threatening which would violate the bible principle of the sanctity of life and physical cleanliness. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that our bodies are temples of God and we must take all reasonable measures to keep them undefiled. Habits that show gross disrepect for life is not compatible with Christian living.

Jehovah's Witness view,


Should Christian groups welcome of exclude those who are still struggling with their bad habits?

Anyone can enjoy fellowship with Jehovah's Witnesses at our public meetings and benefit from our home bible instruction program. Jehovah's Witnesses also often invite those interested in learning about Jehovah to our homes, or to join us in recreational activities. Jehovah's Witness ministers however cannot practice habits that bible deems incompatible with Christian living.


JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

hoghead1
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Re: Smokers need not apply...

Post #3

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to Elijah John]

Interesting question. The Christian religion is based on the premise that we are imperfect creatures who sin. If the churches were to exclude all sinners, all imperfect people, there wouldn't be any people left in any of the churches.

The Bible doesn't say you shouldn't' drink, actually praises wine, or that you shouldn't smoke or even that you shouldn't use drugs.

Your question about smoking is a interest to me simply because I am a pipe fiend. I own well over 70 pipes and puff away every chance and I'm an old geezer, too. When I was a grad. student, attending seminars, especially long ones, we all pulled out our pipes, and puffed away even some of the gals. Today, smoking is controversial in many circles, but that is today. I grew up with the idea firmly implanted in my mind that pot was a horrible, dangerous drug. Now, researchers claim that pot cam be medically beneficial. I live in a state where it is legal, and as soon as the prices come down, I'll probably be putting some into my pipes.

What's in or out, legal or illegal, seems to rest in the arbitrary dictates of the powers that be. Originally, cocaine was introduced as of great medical benefit. You should read Freud on the subject. Then, eventually, ruled out. Pot was one, when I was growing up, still is a Class I drug according the Feds. Now, many medical authorities disagree and see positive benefit in it. We were all taught that there are "safe," medically approved of, drugs, and then "unsafe" ones. Now, all you do is turn on TV and find all sorts of harmful side effects of the so-called "safe" drugs. We have declared heroin illegal, but put persons on methadone, which is just as addictive. Well, don't get me started on drug addictions. I just spend fived years as a state-licensed substance-abuse counselor and go on and on abut the arbitrary way our society deals with the "drug problem."

The world is full of all kinds of intoxicating plants. We've only just scratched the surface. And it occurs to me quite odd that that would have crated all these, had God not intended them to be used to our benefit. God plants them. I just smoke 'em.

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Smokers need not apply...

Post #4

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

QUESTION: Is Luke 5:31 to be understood that Jesus encouraged unrepentant sinners to continue to do the things condemned in scripture?
Luke 5: 31-32
And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are in health have no need of a physician; but they that are sick. I am not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.
Jesus was addressing the self righteous Pharisees who looked down on the common people. Some of these religious leaders even went so far as to teach that the ordinary working class people, who had not attended their schools of higher learning nor had the times or the means to keep their endless list of unbibilcal additional religious traditions were "acccursed" and could not gain God's approval.

Jesus on the other hand did not hesistate to associate with these humble teachable people; he dignified them with spiritual instruction and remained approachable to even the most destitute of them. Does this mean however that Jesus didn't expect them, once instructed and helped to change any unscriptural behaviour?

Notice he likened himself to a physician or a doctor and sinners to sick people. Certainly the sick do not need to be chastised, abused or disrespected (even if they were partially responsible themselves for their illness through bad decisions or negligence) but any good doctor still would expect his patient to follow his instructions to get better. In line with this Jesus said he came to call those same sinners "sinners to repentance" (Luke 5:32). To repent means to recognize the wrong committed. Someone that sincerely repents of a sinful lifestyle changes. So while Jesus did eat and associate with prostitutes and others of questionable lifestyles it would be with the aim of helping them change. Often Jesus said after forgiving someone "Go, and sin no more" not "Go and keep doing what you are doing".

Jesus would later speak of his "church" meaning the body of dedicated and baptised believers; and to them he gave instructions that certain standards should be respected and how to deal with those that do not keep those standards (see Matthew 18:15-18)

CONCLUSION: Jesus taught by example to be compassionate, patient and empathetic with those that do not live lives according to God's standards offering them the needed help to change. He did not advocate tolerating those that deliberately and unrepentantly violate scriptural standards.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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theStudent
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Re: Smokers need not apply...

Post #5

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

I would first ask the question - which is worst, sticking a needle full of heroin in your veins or smoking?
Then I would ask, which one would cause a family trying to raise a family in a good way, and looking for a good place to worship, think that the congregation that is made up of these individuals is a good one?
Another questions - Would they be willing to welcome these individual in their home to teach them how to live by Bible standards?
Yet another - If one person is allowed to become an ordained minister of Christ, with these bad habits, what message is being sent not only to those on the inside, but the outside as well? Would there not be a great influx of heroin users or smokers? Would not some in the congregation, including those who fought the habit, either be influenced to fall back, feel cheated that they left the company of smokers to enjoy the company of those trying to live decent - but nothing has changed, and would some not think there exists hypocrisy and double standards?
There are other questions I could ask, but these, i think are enough to demonstrate why that is not in harmony with the teachings of scripture.

Oh. One more.
How would onlookers view the congregation and in turn God? Would it not be as today, where they turn away from religion and God because of hypocrisy? Or would they feel moved to change their bad habits, which they may consider no worse than smoking?

When John the baptist came preaching, he preached repentance leading to baptism. "Repent!..." Jesus and his apostles did too.
  • (Mark 1:15) . . .. Repent, and have faith in the good news.â€�
    (Acts 2:38) . . .“Repent, and let each one of you be baptized . . .
    (Acts 26:20) . . .I was bringing the message that they should repent and turn to God by doing works that befit repentance.
When the wicked scribes came to be baptized, what did he say to them?
  • (Matthew 3:7, 8) 7 When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance.

It is a scriptural teaching that one must repent and turn around, before being baptised.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Re: Smokers need not apply...

Post #6

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to theStudent]

There are several major issues here that I think you are overlooking. One is what standards you use to determine what are or are not bad habits. That has varied from time to time and can be very arbitrary. For example, you have the Temperance movement. Now, some will see this as representing the true sprit of Christian Puritanism. But, actually, it doesn't. The actual "Puritans" did drink and also smoked, though the English "Puritans" did ban plays and various sports we accept, as bad habits, evil. Cromwell's New Model Army, the special Puritan army he created, all carried a flask full of rum and their clay pipes in their hats. Actually, one of the first things the "Puritans" did when they came over on the Mayflower was to stop off and brew up some beer. (I put "Puritans" in quotes because it is a term used by later historians, not at the time) Baptists, for example, have generally been strict temperance people, but that is certainly not true of Presbyterians, nor Lutherans. In fact, Luther praised beer and said at one point that if you run into a t-tottler, you should blow your beery breath in his or her face. He also had a large beer stein, with Genesis at the top and Armageddon at the bottom. His goal was to drink it way down to Armageddon. Wonder if he did. I grew up as a member of a historic Presbyterian Church in Western Pennsylvania. Down in the basement old church, now a landmark, was where they originally had a whisky still, back in the 19th century.

Bottom line: This whole "bad-habit" issue can be very arbitrary and then requires a lot of careful consideration before all the finger-pointing starts.

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Post #7

Post by onewithhim »

Yes, in line with what JW and theStudent said, most of us JWs have had bad habits that we conquered to get baptized. I smoked 2 packs a day but I stopped immediately when I decided to get baptized. It can be done, as millions of us have proved.

Why would God allow into his clean congregation something that defiles the body like smoking does? Have you noticed what cigarettes consist of? You might as well put your mouth over the exhaust pipe on your car. The tar in one cigarette gets a clean ashtray all sticky. What do pictures of someone's lungs look like, who have smoked? It's horrible. So why do this to one's body? And to one's children? It's selfish and destructive.


"Since we have these promises, beloved ones, let us cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God's fear." (2Corinth.7:1)

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Post #8

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to onewithhim]

On the other hand,consider this: Have you ever considered what's on water? How much gunk is in it? Even the supposedly bottled water has so much gunk in it that we can't use it in our steam locomotive. We have to get specially treated "pure" water from the local power plant. That 'scum" you see around the inside of a pot that boiled water just tells a tiny part of the story as to the many harmful products water contains. I know of only one state that has a law regarding water-tower inspection: Texas. You wouldn't believe the gunk they find at the bottom of those huge tanks. New York City has water towers on every building taller than seven stories. They are never inspected. Some recent researchers found just about everything filthy in those wooden tanks from dirty rain water and debris to pigeon and rat feces. Should churches insist members abstain from drinking water, including bottled water? Should the churches tell their members they'd be far better off drinking booze? Because water is so filthy, one of the first things the Pilgrims did was to stop off and make beer. Indeed, back in the colonies, there were laws that required a tavern be built by the churches, so that thirsty members of the congregation had a safe place to get a safe drink, good. old booze. Remember, the alcohol purifies the water.

Consider nuts: Do you have nay idea what they can do to your stomach? I and many others have an almost life-threating allergy to nuts, especially peanuts, even the smell turns my stomach. That's why many packages said they contain products that may contain traces of nuts. Do you want nuts listed as a health hazard and encourage members not to eat them?

Consider medical posters and "photos." Many used by the media prove out to be fakes. Case in point, those famous pictures, via David Amen, of your brain on drugs, the one with the big holes in the brain. I'm sure you may have seen it. Totally fake. Amen used a method of brain-scanning that is highly suspect, won't be paid for my any health insurer, and possibly medically dangerous. He has published a lot of hype about their being holes in addicts' head, their brains looking like "Swiss cheese," but in point of fact those aren't holes at all, just hype. I saw one of his films where not only does he want to ban all contact sports because they cause "holes" in your head, but was also telling members of a local church they shouldn't eat hot dogs.

Consider many medically approved drugs. Note how unsafe some of those are. You've probably seen the ads, though we all need to remember there is always considerable media hype and politics involved. I can tell you, based on my clinical experience as a substance-abuse counselor, that many medications used with addicts are extremely dangerous and equally addictive. Methadone is one example. Another is Xanax, which can cause death and psychosis during withdrawal. Back in the day, when I was a clinical-psychology trainee in the VA, Thorazine was the miracle drug. But Thorazine is so hard on the kidneys that we had to run regular urine checks. That stuff can make one literally pee purple and have terrible skin problems when exposed to the sun. Should churches tell their members not to take any psychoactive medications, then? When Nixon was president, he was vehemently anti-pot, commissioned studies to be done to demonstrate the deleterious effects of pot. The researchers came up with contrary findings, and so Nixon simply ignored the report. Today, we find medical researchers speaking out on the great beneficial effects of pot. As Hyman Rothman once said, "Doctors, what do they know?" Well, of course, doctors know a great deal. Still, medicine is not an exact science and so you really have to work at it to separate out fact from myth, truth from arbitrariness.

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Re: Smokers need not apply...

Post #9

Post by Yahu »

Elijah John wrote: (Luke 5.31)
And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are in health have no need of a physician; but they that are sick.
One of our Jehovah's Witnesses said that smokers cannot be baptized and become members of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Even, apparently, smokers who want to quit. They have to have already kicked the habit.

Seems this criteria could be extended to ALL who are struggling with their bad habits.

For debate:

In light of Luke 5.31, how Christian is this exclusionary attitude and requirement?

Should Christian groups welcome of exclude those who are still struggling with their bad habits?
Well there is another reason I could never be a JW. I don't smoke but I do have a smokeless tobacco habit. I dip so therefore I do have a nicotine addiction.

I guess addiction isn't allowed. I wonder if they exclude coffee drinkers because of caffeine addiction.

Requiring perfection by religious standards is yet another trait of the Pharisees. I wonder if JW have any prison ministries? That is one thing that Yeshua specifically references is visiting those in prison but those in prison wouldn't be 'religiously perfect'.

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Post #10

Post by Elijah John »

onewithhim wrote: Why would God allow into his clean congregation something that defiles the body like smoking does?
Isn't that a bit like asking "why would anyone allow sick people into a hospital"?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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