Is God's silence significant?

[marco]

We wait for a period of time before pronouncing missing people dead. In the last two millennia we've heard nothing from God, but before that he did shout a few words from the sky, if reports are accurate.

Which is the most reasonable conclusion:
(a) God has died
(b) God never existed
(c) God acts in whatever way he wants and some humans can detect him.

[Peds nurse]

Hello my lovely debating family!!

Are we not hearing God, or are we simply not listening? I hear the voice of God (not audible), all the time. I hear him in the voice of my autistic child, who despite her circumstances, finds joy in things that others may not. I hear him in the laughter of children, in the songs we sing at church, and in the smiles of random strangers. I see him working, giving hope to the mourning, the depressed, the hurt, the homeless, and the hungry.

According to the Bible, God talked to His people directly, and then through prophets, through His Son, Jesus, and now through the Holy Spirit, given to His people. We are His voice, and although I personally, don't speak loudly often enough, I pray I speak often.

I know this is preachy, so I apologize in advance. I have GOT to stop doing that, it's driving you all nuts! I'm going to ask for tutoring lessons from Mr. Z. Marco, and DI!!


Hey, have a glorious day!!

[Willum]

[Replying to Peds nurse]

You've changed the paradigm, PN, however so subtly:
If we were talking to a higher power, we would get higher intelligence and wisdom than we posses ourselves.
We don't see this, in fact the opposite. We get messages that are essentially internal and effortless. They don't tell us how to cure cancer for example, no matter how much that could benefit individuals and the world in general.

The harder you listen, the more likely you hear yourself, but no wisdom is imparted.

Indeed, you would still need to show it wasn't an angel or demon, if it was not simple delusion.

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to Peds nurse]

You've changed the paradigm, PN, however so subtly:
If we were talking to a higher power, we would get higher intelligence and wisdom than we posses ourselves.
We don't see this, in fact the opposite. We get messages that are essentially internal and effortless. They don't tell us how to cure cancer for example, no matter how much that could benefit individuals and the world in general.

The harder you listen, the more likely you hear yourself, but no wisdom is imparted.

I am happy to hear from you Willum!

What I hear you saying, is that in order for it to be God speaking, it would have to be information that we don't have, such as numbers to a winning lottery ticket? I suppose, that would be nice, but then again, not everyone wants the same information. The cure for cancer would be nice, as well as the cure for heart disease, CF, CP, Aids, migranes, and the common cold. Suppose that God just had one cure for it all? What if the answer is the one thing that people don't believe (or at least some)?

Indeed, you would still need to show it wasn't an angel or demon, if it was not simple delusion.

Let us take a scientific look at why we hear. Sound waves travel into the ear canal until they reach the eardrum. The eardrum passes the vibrations through the middle ear bones or ossicles into the inner ear. The inner ear is shaped like a snail and is also called the cochlea. Inside the cochlea, there are thousands of tiny hair cells. Hair cells change the vibrations into electrical signals that are sent to the brain through the hearing nerve. The brain tells you that you are hearing a sound and what that sound is.

There are deaf people in the world. For some reason, there is a breakdown in the internal structure of the ear, preventing sound waves from reaching the brain. Just because they can't hear external stimuli, does not mean it doesn't exist.

There is also a problem called sensorineural hearing loss, in which the brain does not interpret the sounds, or vibrations heard. These people get the external stimuli, but interpretation isn't there. Just because some cannot interpret sound, does not mean it doesn't exist.

I could go outside, and at the top of my lungs, yell your name, WILLUM! Chances are, that you will not hear me because you are too far away. Distance does affect our ability to hear stimuli that is too far away. We can be too far away to hear.

We know it is God's voice, when we compare it to scripture. We also know, that hearing is based on several factors, and that not everyone hears the same thing, or even at the same time. When we are close to God (My sheep will hear my voice), we recognize His voice. Do you verify voices that you know?

[Willum]

[Replying to Peds nurse]

Of course that's non-analogous PN. Except for the thing like lottery numbers, but a dead god can't communicate anything.

Anyway - to salvage what you did say: Yes, surgeons should have been able to pray for and receive guidance on how to cure heart surgery. Oncologists should have been able to receive anti-cancer guidance.

Perhaps they could have seven hundred years ago, when the trinity was still alive.

As for hearing stuff, I mean I suppose there are ways to influence people without hearing, or sight, or etc., but it really doesn't change the principle of hearing or communication. If everyone hears a different message, it is a good indication of delusion.

Pretty good evidence that no one has heard anything but their own voice since the 1400's, wouldn't you agree? God, despite changing times still repeats the same old message from a book. It makes no sense, except that people God is incapable of sending new information due to his death.

Maybe a sance could help?

[benchwarmer]

Hello Peds, so nice to hear a Christian talking science and making sense. We need more like you over in the S&R subforum! We don't bite... mostly

Let us take a scientific look at why we hear. Sound waves travel into the ear canal until they reach the eardrum. The eardrum passes the vibrations through the middle ear bones or ossicles into the inner ear. The inner ear is shaped like a snail and is also called the cochlea. Inside the cochlea, there are thousands of tiny hair cells. Hair cells change the vibrations into electrical signals that are sent to the brain through the hearing nerve. The brain tells you that you are hearing a sound and what that sound is.

There are deaf people in the world. For some reason, there is a breakdown in the internal structure of the ear, preventing sound waves from reaching the brain. Just because they can't hear external stimuli, does not mean it doesn't exist.

So very true. However, the deaf can detect sound, just not with their ears. Sit them on a subwoofer and crank up the music. Now their tushy becomes their 'ears'. This lets them physically feel what we are 'hearing'. All this to say that just because they are deaf doesn't mean they can't verify what sound is.

There is also a problem called sensorineural hearing loss, in which the brain does not interpret the sounds, or vibrations heard. These people get the external stimuli, but interpretation isn't there. Just because some cannot interpret sound, does not mean it doesn't exist.

Similarly, you could do the same as for the deaf or even get more 'sciencey' and break out a sound meter. It's possible to explain what sound is and show other ways to detect it so they can verify when there is sound and when there isn't.

I could go outside, and at the top of my lungs, yell your name, WILLUM! Chances are, that you will not hear me because you are too far away. Distance does affect our ability to hear stimuli that is too far away. We can be too far away to hear.

Yes, but now that Willum knows you are singing his name into the night he could theoretically find out where you live and listen for his name. It could be verified if he knew where to be. I hope he brings chocolates to thank you for singing his name

We know it is God's voice, when we compare it to scripture.

Which scripture? How do we know the scripture we have is from God? The Christian Bible seems full of contradictory and often horrific things that this God has done. Why would we want to line up anything with that? Even if it could be shown that only the 'love stuff' is from God, we are still left with two unknowns trying to verify each other.

We also know, that hearing is based on several factors, and that not everyone hears the same thing, or even at the same time. When we are close to God (My sheep will hear my voice), we recognize His voice. Do you verify voices that you know?

Sometimes I verify voices that I know. Have you never said something like "Is that you X?"

Have a great one Peds!

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 14 by Willum]

As for hearing stuff, I mean I suppose there are ways to influence people without hearing, or sight, or etc., but it really doesn't change the principle of hearing or communication. If everyone hears a different message, it is a good indication of delusion.

delusion: an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder.
"the delusion of being watched"

If the voice of God (which many Christians hear), is a delusion, then 2.2 billion people today are delusional, not to mention all that have died since Jesus. Not to say that is proof it isn't a delusion, but it does make it highly improbable. One would be hard pressed to diagnose someone as delusional based solely on hearing the voice of God telling us to love one another, or to go be a missionary.

We all hear different messages from the same people everyday. My daughter tells me that she wants pizza for dinner. The same daughter tells my husband that she needs to be to work at 4. Same person delivering both messages, yet they are different, but true. God can prompt some to be missionaries, while telling others to be foster parents, or pastors, or serving him in some other capacity. Same God, different messages which do not contradict the Bible.

[Willum]

[Replying to Peds nurse]

Interesting.
Can you prove this thing isn't simply human nature?
A mild form of delusion?
Indeed, I can generate the same sensations fictitiously in myself day and night, and recognize them for what they are. Why are mine incorrect and everyone else's correct?
Or am I just honest to myself about it?

A delusion can not create new information, rather like the 2.2 million people who pray do not seem to be able to get it together to make the world better. Instead, relying on a deceased deity to solve their problems for them.

Which solution better fits the observed results?

(?)

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to Peds nurse]

Can you prove this thing isn't simply human nature?
A mild form of delusion?

If its human nature, then why would we need this debating site? There would be nothing to argue, because everyone would be on the same page...because we are all human (at least after I get my coffee in the morning).

Indeed, I can generate the same sensations fictitiously in myself day and night, and recognize them for what they are. Why are mine incorrect and everyone else's correct?
Or am I just honest to myself about it?

Sensations? I am not exactly sure what you mean. It isn't like we are in love, in some sort of dreamy state. We are very well aware of who we are, and where we are. I even plan on voting on Tuesday!

A delusion can not create new information, rather like the 2.2 million people who pray do not seem to be able to get it together to make the world better.

There isn't anyway to evaluate that, because one would only know, if the 2.2 billion Christians never existed, and the people prior to that, then we would know if the world is better without prayer...and God.

Instead, relying on a deceased deity to solve their problems for them.

Which solution better fits the observed results?

I can see why you have difficulty believing in God if you are under the impression that we don't solve problems. I pay my bills, my taxes, fix dinner, and sort out problems. I rely on God for the strength to do those things.

[Willum]

[Replying to Peds nurse]

That looks like an evasion. Debates may be answered with reality, and not opinion or belief, right?
Of course induced answers are the same as answered prayers.
I was a Christian, I know answered prayers - I know the sensation is the same as hoping really really hard.

[marco]

The bible god is invisible and cannot be seen by humans

Well Moses got very close in Exodus 33. "And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen."

By the way, your calculation allows for a mere 364 days in a year. Multiplying by 7 and then 52 isn't quite the arithmetic required. But you make a good point about relative times.