Does God condone slavery TODAY?

[Zzyzx]

.
Does God condone slavery TODAY?

I have encountered nothing in the Bible indicating that God condemns or even discourages the practice of slavery. Even “don't return escaped slaves� or “don't beat them to death: accept the practice of slavery.

In today's world slavery exists. Most enlightened / educated / informed people seem to oppose the practice. However, God does not seem to have anything to say on the matter.

Has God changed his mind? If so, how has that been made known?

[Zzyzx]

.

How much further from reality can a religion get than to teach that there is no difference between slave and free?

I suppose it could command people to liberate their slaves but why should it?

It would seem as though a proposed all-wise supernatural entity giving out rules for humans to live by would have prohibited owning one another -- but it was supposedly more concerned with having them worship it and emphasized the evil in lying (or bearing false witness), coveting, stealing.

Perhaps the proposed entity had a warped sense of humor or a warped sense of justice -- or more likely, the men who wrote the Bible accepted the practice of slavery and their modern followers feel compelled to attempt to 'justify' those attitudes (no matter how irrational the arguments).

Is slavery wrong – or do you just prefer not to be a slave and assume that others, slaves for example, think the same way?

Of course, it is JUST me who prefers to not be a slave . . .

Wonderful defense of religion-based ideas. Readers must be quite impressed.

It is not surprising that someone whose religion teaches that there is no difference between slave and free to be unprepared to make that distinction.

Exactly what difference is there between the two – other than one may be owned by someone else? Is that wrong?

“To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.� ―Thomas Paine http://izquotes.com

[JLB32168]

It would seem as though a proposed all-wise supernatural entity giving out rules for humans to live by would have prohibited owning one another . . .

But why would it have given out rules that prohibit humans from owning one another? Is it wrong for humans to own one another?

Of course, it is JUST me who prefers to not be a slave. Wonderful defense of religion-based ideas. Readers must be quite impressed.

What’s impressive is your dancing around the question. You’re quite adept at it. I’ll ask again.

Is slavery wrong?

“To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.�

How is this quote relevant to the issue of slavery being wrong and something an ancient deity should have prohibited?

Let’s see how well you dance.

[Zzyzx]

.

I can see how the definitions might have confused you, but now that you see them one after the other, can you see how submission and slavery are different concepts?

Children submit to their parents (when reasonable.)

Do slaves submit to owners when reasonable?

Are children slaves?

Slave is defined as: a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant. http://www.dictionary.com

In what manner of thinking do children fit that definition?

You don't seem to notice the difference between being FREE and having a job, and being a SLAVE and having a job.

Oh I know the difference.

Responses seem to indicate otherwise – difficulty in differentiating between forced submission (or labor) and voluntary submission (or wage labor).

I asked you why the latter was wrong three millennia ago.

Notice that the topic of this thread is “Does God condone slavery TODAY?� Today is capitalized to emphasize that the discussion is in the present – not the past.

Has 'God' changed his mind about slavery?

[JLB32168]

Do slaves submit to owners when reasonable?

Ahem

Is slavery wrong?

Is there some problem with you answering the question you’ve avoided several times now???????

[Zzyzx]

.

Do slaves submit to owners when reasonable?

Ahem

Is slavery wrong?

Is there some problem with you answering the question you’ve avoided several times now???????

Notice that while berating me for not answering a question (that I have answered) YOU fail to answer my question that you quoted – but attempt a dodge tactic by asking a question.

I consider slavery to be 'wrong'. Do you disagree?

Every world government decrees slavery to be wrong (save perhaps one). Do you disagree?

Notice that “Do you disagree?� is a question . . .

[Clownboat]

I can see how the definitions might have confused you, but now that you see them one after the other, can you see how submission and slavery are different concepts?

Children submit to their parents (when reasonable.) Are children slaves?

How about we make sure you are clear on the difference between submission and slavery before we move on to more questions.

Is submission and slavery still confusing for you? Do you understand how a person could be submissive, yet not a slave? Therefore, being submissive does not necessarily make a slave. Heck, submissive isn't even in the definition of slave.

Imagine a submissive child. Imagine if that child is yours now. Would you parent that child like someone you love, or like someone you own? If you parent a child like you own the child, then perhaps it could be argued that you treat your children like slaves. If you claim to own your children like property, then perhaps it could be argued that you treat them as if they are slaves as well. Do you work your children excessively hard? If so.... Thankfully, I have never met a parent that treats their children like slaves.

Keep in mind that there are actual slaves on this planet. I would assume that if real slaves read your questions about what is slavery, they would be insulted.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 80 by JLB32168]



[center]
Fallacious Religious Reasoning:
Not accepting the difference between freedom and slavery, while attempting to show us the difference.
Part Two[/center]

You don't seem to notice the difference between being FREE and having a job, and being a SLAVE and having a job.

Oh I know the difference. I asked you why the latter was wrong three millennia ago.

Ok sorry.
I must have missed that.

Allow me to address it now:


In my personal opinion, it's wrong to take the freedom away from a person unless there is no CHOICE ( as in.. protecting each other from violent offenders who might do it again )

I don't think that all SLAVES are violent offenders, and I don't consider forced labor moral, either.

Having a job is NOT identical with forced labor.

I am a bit shocked to have to explain that to you?
You don't already KNOW this?

I'm thinking to myself : "He has to be told why slavery is wrong? ... REALLY????"

And in the light of this statement from post 77, I have to wonder if you DO know the difference, because you seem to have to ask what the difference is:

"Exactly what difference is there between the two – other than one may be owned by someone else? Is that wrong?"

___________

Questions:

• 1. Honestly, all debates aside.. do you REALLY have to be told why slavery is wrong?
  2. Do you think that all labor is FORCED LABOR?
  3. Do you think that all slaves are dangerous to society?
  4. Do you endorse slave labor?
  5. Do you endorse forced labor of ANY KIND?

6. And finally, if you know the difference between slavery and freedom, why do you ask what the difference is so much?

___________

[JLB32168]

Notice that while berating me for not answering a question (that I have answered) YOU fail to answer my question that you quoted – but attempt a dodge tactic by asking a question.

Where did you answer the question, “Is slavery wrong?� If you’ll point to the post then I will go back, read it, and apologize.

I consider slavery to be 'wrong'. Do you disagree?

Okay – so you consider slavery is wrong. You just won't go on to say categorically "Slavery is morally wrong, always has been, always is, always will be." I certainly hope you've not commented on the Christianity is morally bankrupt thread because . . . well . . . isn't it obvious?

What about someone who doesn’t think it’s wrong? Is s/he wrong for believing that slavery is okay? Every world government decrees slavery to be wrong (save perhaps one). Do you disagree? Notice that “Do you disagree?� is a question . . .

Yes, I agree that every world government decrees slavery is wrong. I’m just not sure as to how this addresses the issue of slavery being objectively wrong that you can condemn a deity who didn’t say, “Slavery is wrong.�

If you can’t answer the question “Is slavery wrong� except to qualify that as merely your opinion and the opinion of a lot of other people meaning that it's only wrong when most people think it's wrong but otherwise slavery is morally neutral. How can you fault a deity for not condemning slavery in a time that everyone thought it was okay – even some of the slaves?

[JLB32168]

In my personal opinion, it's wrong to take the freedom away from a person unless there is no CHOICE ( as in.. protecting each other from violent offenders who might do it again )

Okay – so if someone else’s opinion is different and s/he has no problem taking freedoms away from people, is s/he wrong for doing so or is s/he just wrong, IYO?

I told everyone already that I wouldn’t want to be enslaved; therefore, I would never defend slavery and would work against it. Having said that, I can’t prove that slavery is wrong and indeed if no absolute standard exists then slavery is morally neutral. That would mean that a Bronze Age society did nothing wrong in enjoying the benefits of free labor. That would further mean that the deity who put regulations on its practice did not wrong in failing to condemn this morally neutral institution.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 89 by JLB32168]



[center]
Fallacious Religious Reasoning:
Not accepting the difference between freedom and slavery, while attempting to show us the difference.
Part Three: No absolute morality, no morality at all[/center]

In my personal opinion, it's wrong to take the freedom away from a person unless there is no CHOICE ( as in.. protecting each other from violent offenders who might do it again )

Okay – so if someone else’s opinion is different and s/he has no problem taking freedoms away from people, is s/he wrong for doing so or is s/he just wrong, IYO?

In my opinion, yes.
I hold that slavery is immoral.

This is my moral opinion.

You were asking for my opinion, and I gave it.
I gave you a reason for why I hold that slavery is morally wrong.

I don't know what you mean by "wrong for doing so" or "just wrong".

I told everyone already that I wouldn’t want to be enslaved; therefore, I would never defend slavery and would work against it.

I wonder WHO IT IS you imagine would LIKE to be a slave...

But to outsiders, it might seem that you defend BIBLICAL slavery.
It seems very much like that to me.

You are defending Biblical slavery... not any OTHER kind of slavery.
Just the Biblical kind.

And that's so very WEIRD to me.
I don't get that at all.

Having said that, I can’t prove that slavery is wrong and indeed if no absolute standard exists then slavery is morally neutral.

So, if something exist in an absolute way I have to wonder if you think that it doesn't exist at all... Absolute morality or nothing, is it?

That would mean that a Bronze Age society did nothing wrong in enjoying the benefits of free labor.

Not in my way of thinking.
I hold that slavery is wrong PERIOD.. doesn't matter when, doesn't matter who, doesn't matter why. SURELY doesn't matter what religion.

I hold that forcing captives into slave labor is just wrong.

That would further mean that the deity who put regulations on its practice did not wrong in failing to condemn this morally neutral institution.

Yes, if all transactions are deemed to be morally neutral, then it doesn't make sense to think of ANYTHING at all as morally wrong OR good, now does it?

But not all of us think in absolutes like some Christians do.
Morality is not "all or nothing" to me.

__________

Questions:

• 1. Could you explain why we need an absolute "God given" morality, instead of a morality that is based on reality ?
  2. You say that if if no absolute standard exists then slavery would be morally neutral. Could you explain how come that would be?
  3. Could you explain the difference between ""wrong for doing so" and "just wrong", so that I can hope to answer your question?
  4. You seem to be making a case FOR Biblical slavery. Why do you say that you don't defend it?
  5. Could you elaborate on your "absolute or nothing" reasoning about morality?
  6. You say that you yourself would not like to be a slave. Who do you think WOULD?

__________