Did we Exist Before The Garden of Eden?

[theStudent]

For debate:
Did we all exist in the spirit realm or in another realm before our birth as humans?

[theStudent]

It appears most persons believe that according to the Bible, no one lived before Adam and Eve.
I tend to agree, since I have never seen any scripture which says otherwise.

RESPONSE: Yes. We existed in the mind of God.

I'm understanding you polonius.advice, to mean, that it was his will for humans to exist. Am I correct?

IF we all sinned by our own free will pre-earth then by being born human we are being pointed out as sinners and enter into the death of Adam like it says, not his sin which it doesn't say. WE are put under Adam's death so Christ needs to die once for all sinful elect and not once for each sinful elect.

What I understand you to be saying ttruscott, is that we existed in a realm - I'm not sure if heavenly, earthly, or otherwise - before being born on earth. But you are saying that for us to be "reborn", we came through Adam and Eve, so that one man's sin would combine all our sins, which would then be covered by the death of one man - the last Adam - Jesus Christ.
Am I understanding you correctly? Since everyone else agrees that the scriptures do not teach of anyone living before Adam and Eve, do you have any scripture(s) that you can prove what you claim?

IF GOD created us as sinners without our free will decision to sin then HE is the cause of any sin we do, not us. We are not guilty if we did not choose by our free will to rebel against HIM. There is no need for us to be redeemed if we did not chose by our free will to rebel against HIM nor is it just to punish us.

Ah. I see how you are looking at it.
There are two important things to note though.

1. God only created Adam and Eve. We came, or were made through them.
   Which means that unlike Adam who was a son of God, we are offspring of Adam, or children of Adam. (Luke 3:23-38)
   That is important to keep in mind, when we consider scriptures which speaks of children of God, and sons of God.
2. God subjected, that is, allowed the creation to go through the suffering they foreparent brought upon them - but with hope of deliverance.
   (Romans 8:20) . . .For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope...

This most pernicious view destroys all of Christendom by destroying GOD's perfect holiness and righteousness in love - HE cannot create evil like a well of life giving sweet water cannot put forth brackish or salt water.

If we have the view that God created the sin, or evil, I agree it does not harmonize with the qualities portrayed by the God of love, but as shown above God did not create sinners. He created two persons who sinned, and passed on that defect to all their descendants.

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 9 by ttruscott]

1. WE are not guilty of sin. Death is the wages for sin and babies die so they are getting the payback for their sin but Adam or GOD who put them in Adam should get it, not them...they had no choice. Without a free will choice one cannot sin unless one is already evil and lost his free will.

What do you understand by the phrase, "being born in sin"?
Do you understand it to mean that we made a choice to sin, or that we we born as slaves to sin, that is, as the scriptures say, ruled by sin in our flesh? (Romans 7:14-20) I am fleshly, sold under sin... If, then, I do what I do not wish, I am no longer the one carrying it out, but it is the sin dwelling in me.
According to the Bible, we made no choice to sin when we were born. We inherited it from Adam.
Because God mercifully allowed Adam and Eve to live and produce offspring, he allowed the creation to be born as slaves to sin, but mercifully he made a way out.

GOD can do no evil as a well of life giving water cannot put forth brackish or saltwater. James 3:11 Can both freshwater and bitter water flow from the same spring? ... Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.…

I agree, God does not love evil. Neither did he create it.

WE were created to be the Bride of Christ. Why would HE create HIS Bride as evil and disgustingly corrupt? There is no little sin as any sin sends the sinner to hell or puts Christ on the cross. So HIS Bride was created as evil, corrupted and hateful as the worst demon...for what???

I do not agree with this.
Where does the scriptures say

WE were created to be the Bride of Christ.

Neither does the scriptures say

HE create HIS Bride as evil and disgustingly corrupt

So you are in agreement with what is said here (Colossians 1:21-23) Indeed, you who were once alienated and enemies because your minds were on the works that were wicked, he has now reconciled by means of that one’s fleshly body through his death, in order to present you holy and unblemished and open to no accusation before him — provided, of course, that you continue in the faith, . . .

Did you notice it says

you who were once alienated and enemies

So they were not always God's children, nor Christ's bride. They only became his creation after they put faith in God's word, and were born of water and the spirit - born again. Did you realize that?

What do you mean by

There is no little sin as any sin sends the sinner to hell or puts Christ on the cross.

It makes no sense at all when we know HE could have made us each as individuals culpable of only our own sin because HE did that already in Adam and Eve! It is absurd to think HE created HIS church evil by making them human.

God did it his way. He created a man and woman and told them to have children and fill the earth. God did not intend for them to die. They rebelled and lost the hope of living forever on earth. Their offspring suffered because of them, but God mercifully made a way out for them, by being willing to sacrifice the life of his dear son, to redeem mankind, and restore their earthly home.

The reason this was accepted by the Church was in support of our creation on earth either by traducianism or creationism of the soul but our pre-conception existences offers everything the created on earth theory does without all the blasphemy.

No. The teaching that Adam is/was the father of all living, and that his offspring inherited sin from him, is Biblical. It is supported by numerous Bible writers.
Can you prove otherwise?

Nowhere in the bible is there any hint, implication nor inference that our pre-earth existence must be rejected and I have dozens of scripture verses that imply it is true so that it really should overwhelm all Christians like it did me.

I believe those of us in disagreement, would like to see any proof, you can present.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 12 by theStudent]

I would imagine if it were true then the Holy Spirit would have led all Christianity to the same truths by now?

John 16:12-14New International Version (NIV)

12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.

And if the Holy Spirit can reveal the truth to one person I imagine the same Holy Spirit can reveal the truth to all believers.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 12 by theStudent]

I would imagine if it were true then the Holy Spirit would have led all Christianity to the same truths by now?

John 16:12-14New International Version (NIV)

12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.

And if the Holy Spirit can reveal the truth to one person I imagine the same Holy Spirit can reveal the truth to all believers.

It has. Jehovah's Witnesses (all 8 million of true believers) have had the truth revealed to them and worship Jehovah unitedly in "spirit and truth" as the bible says would be the case in these "last days".

JW

[ttruscott]

It appears most persons believe that according to the Bible, no one lived before Adam and Eve.
I tend to agree, since I have never seen any scripture which says otherwise.

I will offer some scripture then, not to prove you missed something but to show the possibility of our pre-earth existence being in the scripture. These are not proof verses, few doctrines are offered with undeniable proof, but proof that the alternative to orthodoxy, our pre-existence is NOT denied in scripture and maybe in the Bible but hidden behind orthodoxy.

Please consider who are the people, these Sons of GOD in Job 38:7 who sang HIS praise at the creation of the physical universe and what is your proof they did not include Adam and Eve and you and me?

So now you have seen such a hint what do you think ? because now I encourage you to apply this viewing of the creation of the physical universe to Rom 1:20 as the reason no one has any excuse to not accept YHWH's (not just any god) deity and power (check the context for yourself). I base this interpretation of the scope of the proof on the total failure of any study of nature to 1. be able to prove YHWH's deity and power [Indeed, the deeper someone studies nature it seems like the more they deny YHWH or as billions of Hindus have proved, many have looked at nature and decided they are God!] and 2. the total lack of anyone anywhere of ever coming to know YHWH before a missionary taught him what the verse meant.

And if all cultures everywhere knew of YHWH by looking at nature, what a great conspiracy it must have been to pretend ignorance of YHWH when the missionaries finally did come!

AS well, we have Colossians 1:23 ...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant....easily but not universally whitewashed of its pre-existence implications.

that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven - I am told that has been proclaimed / preached is a past tense verb for an action that was fulfilled in the past and is continuing in the present, that is, the gospel WAS preached to every creature under heaven and is still being preached to every creature under heaven.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
By "was preached," he means not merely "is being preached," but has been actually, as an accomplished fact, preached.

Meyer's NT Commentary
every creature, [that is] before everything that is created. There is nothing created under the heaven, in whose sphere and environment the gospel had not been proclaimed.

Pulpit Commentary
The universal meaning it carries there is now limited by "under the heaven." The earthly creation subject as it is to Christ, is the sphere of this proclamation, the preaching room which is to resound everywhere with the glad tidings. And with this range it WAS proclaimed, for from the first it claimed universal audience.

Almost eh, but no prize since they could not conceive of a creation that was not earthly...

Since we know that this WAS not ever fulfilled on earth, especially if new people are being created every day, (isn't HIS time of creation supposed to be over?) then the only way it could ever be true is if every person created in the image of GOD was created and heard the gospel (and accepted or rejected it) in their place of creation before the creation of the physical universe and before sinners were sent to live in the earth.

It is funny that people say "it is not in the scriptures" when they really mean "I was never taught an understanding of the scriptures in this way." Now you've seen a few such interpretations, maybe the concept should be considered deeper?

[ttruscott]

What I understand you to be saying ttruscott, is that we existed in a realm - I'm not sure if heavenly, earthly, or otherwise - before being born on earth. But you are saying that for us to be "reborn", we came through Adam and Eve, so that one man's sin would combine all our sins, which would then be covered by the death of one man - the last Adam - Jesus Christ.
Am I understanding you correctly?

Not at all.

1. Every person created in HIS image was created in the spirit world, Sheol, which was later moved to the centre of the earth after the earth was created.

2. In Sheol, we all heard the gospel proclaimed by the Unity called YHWH and we all by our free will chose to accept HIM and HIS gospel of election by salvation OR we rejected HIS deity as a false god and the gospel promises as lies. Thus we separated ourselves into the people who accepted HIM and HIS promises becoming HIS elect under the promise of salvation and the demonic reprobate condemned already.

By rejecting the judgement as unloving, idolizing their doomed friends over HIS call to leave them to their chosen fate, some elect rebelled against GOD's plan and became evil, needing to be redeemed. These sinful elect became the people of the kingdom against the people of the evil one, the good seed against the tares, those sown into the world by the Son of Man against those sown into the world by the devil, the sheep gone astray against the goats.

3. All sinners, those elect and those condemned already were sent to earth for the sole purpose of redeeming HIS elect so the reprobate could be judged because as sinful, HIS sinful elect were liable to being destroyed in the judgment with the tares.

Our rebirth is spiritual only, not physical, and has the purpose of freeing our minds from the enslaving addiction to evil by being born again with a free will to be trained unto righteousness as heaven ready. Our rebirth is definitely NOT our birth on earth as physical humans.

Our relationship to Adam, to what has been called his federal headship, is often seen as the cause of our sinfulness necessary to support the doctrine that we are born sinners. But the verse they use says we inherit his death, not his sin very clearly. They suppose that death and sin are interchangeable but that supposition cannot be proved. Why would we inherit his death, the mortality of humankind? So that, since in Adam all die, in Christ all the sinful elect can receive life from HIS one death. If we were not in a situation of group death, Christ would have to die for each of us individually, over and over!

Hope this helps...

[JehovahsWitness]

Please consider who are the people, these Sons of GOD in Job 38:7 who sang HIS praise at the creation of the physical universe and what is your proof they did not include Adam and Eve and you and me?

Why do you conclude the sons of God were pre-humans not simply angels? After all we know that God lives in heaven with angels...

[marco]

It has. Jehovah's Witnesses (all 8 million of true believers) have had the truth revealed to them and worship Jehovah unitedly in "spirit and truth" as the bible says would be the case in these "last days".

I have searched and searched and nowhere can I find a statement in the Bible saying that Jehovah's Witnesses will be given the truth by the Holy Spirit. Can this be some mistake then?

It is estimated that there are 7.4 billion people in our world today, 8 million of whom are Jehovah's Witnesses. So JWs account for a mere 0.108%.
There are 1.2 billion Roman Catholics, accounting for 16.2%.

I wonder how we measure the success or the efficiency of the Holy Spirit.

[ttruscott]

If we have the view that God created the sin, or evil, I agree it does not harmonize with the qualities portrayed by the God of love, but as shown above God did not create sinners. He created two persons who sinned, and passed on that defect to all their descendants.

Was GOD forced to create HIS Bride as evil, disgustingly corrupt sinners by making them human? NO AT ALL! HE did not make Adam and Eve that way! HE could have made all of us in the same way HE made them, innocent and able to choose. So since we can only claim it is loving to create us as sinners by Adam's work and dying by Adam's sin (though it contradicts Ezekiel 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child.) we can certainly see that the high road of our becoming sinful is if we were given the free will and the ability to choose and the opportunity to accept YHWH OR reject HIM, JUST LIKE ADAM AND EVE HAD, with absolutely no hint of a lack of love, no hint or taint of treating HIS Bride horribly unrighteously and no aroma of evil in the least.

IF HE could have made all of us in the same way HE made them, innocent and able to choose, IF HE did not have to create everyone as demented, criminally insane opposites of HIMself to fill heaven with perfect, loving holy beings in accord with HIMself then it is proof that HE would never do that! To suggest otherwise is to impugn HIS creativity, or HIS imagination or HIS goodness.

Pre-Conception Existence theology contends that HE could and therefore did create us, everyone created in HIS image to be HIS Bride, as ingenuously innocent with a free will ability and the opportunity to choose to accept HIS deity and HIS promises becoming HIS elect OR to choose to reject HIS deity as the claims of a false god and his promises as lies, becoming the condemned. All else leads to blasphemy...a denigration of HIS loving righteousness.

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 15 by ttruscott]

Please consider who are the people, these Sons of GOD in Job 38:7 who sang HIS praise at the creation of the physical universe and what is your proof they did not include Adam and Eve and you and me?

Yes, that is a good question. Thaks for asking.
The verse does not tell us they are humans, but it does tell us that they exisred before the creation of earth. So as JW asked, what would lead you to assume that they are anything but angels?

The Jewish Targum reads: “Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you do know understanding. When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, and all the bands of angels began shouting in applause?
And the Greek Septuagint Version (LXX), says “my angels�.

Just to be clear.
As I said before, God directly created two persons - male and female - Adam and Eve, through which all other humans exist.
So rightly God did not create any human afterwards but because God put reproductive seed in Adam, we are a product of his hands, through Adam.

That is why it is possible for us to be born, blemished, and in sin.