Smokers need not apply...

[Elijah John]

(Luke 5.31)

And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are in health have no need of a physician; but they that are sick.

One of our Jehovah's Witnesses said that smokers cannot be baptized and become members of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Even, apparently, smokers who want to quit. They have to have already kicked the habit.

Seems this criteria could be extended to ALL who are struggling with their bad habits.

For debate:

In light of Luke 5.31, how Christian is this exclusionary attitude and requirement?

Should Christian groups welcome of exclude those who are still struggling with their bad habits?

[theStudent]

I guess what you are in effect saying then is that Jesus was wrong for requiring people to repent of their sins and be baptized ; that Peter was wrong in requiring people to repent and be baptized ; that there was no need to preach to persons, because wheter they practiced sin or not, they could belong to the way.

No you guess wrong, I am not saying that at all. What I am disputing is that the use of tobacco is a sin! Same goes from drinking wine/alcohol or coffee/caffeine. Tobacco use is offensive to some people and they have turned the use of tobacco into a sin by religious traditions of man, not the laws of Yah.

Religious groups don't get to make up what is or is not sin. That was one of the errors of the Pharisees. What I am saying is I have no need to repent of my tobacco habit because it isn't a sin that needs any repentance. Anyone one claiming that it is a sin best worry about the beam in their own eye and send their judgmental, self-righteous Pharisee demons back to the pit of hell where they came from.

Okay.
So two "Christans" have a disagreement on whether smoking tobacco is a sin or not.
A non-believer is looking on.
How would you reason with the unbeliever that it is not a sin to smoke tobacco?

[theStudent]

"We don't want to hear the truth" - basically.

That implies that your opinion of tobacco use as being sin is actually TRUTH.

I don't recall giving my opinion on the matter.
I merely pointed out that the Bible should be the driving force of Christianity.
In other words, Christianity should base it's teachings on the Bible - not personal opinion.
Do you agree with that?

[hoghead1]

[Replying to Yahu]

No, that is not at all correct. Scripture did not deal with mind-altering drugs. Never mentioned the topic.

[Yahu]

I guess what you are in effect saying then is that Jesus was wrong for requiring people to repent of their sins and be baptized ; that Peter was wrong in requiring people to repent and be baptized ; that there was no need to preach to persons, because wheter they practiced sin or not, they could belong to the way.

No you guess wrong, I am not saying that at all. What I am disputing is that the use of tobacco is a sin! Same goes from drinking wine/alcohol or coffee/caffeine. Tobacco use is offensive to some people and they have turned the use of tobacco into a sin by religious traditions of man, not the laws of Yah.

Religious groups don't get to make up what is or is not sin. That was one of the errors of the Pharisees. What I am saying is I have no need to repent of my tobacco habit because it isn't a sin that needs any repentance. Anyone one claiming that it is a sin best worry about the beam in their own eye and send their judgmental, self-righteous Pharisee demons back to the pit of hell where they came from.

Okay.
So two "Christans" have a disagreement on whether smoking tobacco is a sin or not.
A non-believer is looking on.
How would you reason with the unbeliever that it is not a sin to smoke tobacco?

I said tobacco use, not smoke. I don't smoke at all. I dip wintergreen tobacco.

There is no reason to reason with a non-believer about tobacco use at all. Their use of it is irrelevant. As a matter of fact, you are not really suppose to be pointing out sin in non-believers at all. You should be worrying about your own spiritual growth instead of operating as a false prophet in other believers lives. Worry about your own beam in your own eye. Being a meddlesome busybody in other men's lives ranks right up there with murderer, thief and evil-doer in scripture.

1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters.

So someone else's tobacco habit is none of your concern or business. To try to attempt to convince them it is sin would be sin on YOUR PART.

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 54 by Yahu]

I said tobacco use, not smoke. I don't smoke at all. I dip wintergreen tobacco.

That's right. Sorry.

There is no reason to reason with a non-believer about tobacco use at all. Their use of it is irrelevant. As a matter of fact, you are not really suppose to be pointing out sin in non-believers at all. You should be worrying about your own spiritual growth instead of operating as a false prophet in other believers lives. Worry about your own beam in your own eye. Being a meddlesome busybody in other men's lives ranks right up there with murderer, thief and evil-doer in scripture.

1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters.

So someone else's tobacco habit is none of your concern or business. To try to attempt to convince them it is sin would be sin on YOUR PART.

Sorry again.
I should have pointed out that the unbeliever is interested in knowing what God's view is. There are interested in knowing the truth. So they ask.
How do you respond to such individuals?

[Yahu]

[Replying to post 54 by Yahu]

I said tobacco use, not smoke. I don't smoke at all. I dip wintergreen tobacco.

That's right. Sorry.

There is no reason to reason with a non-believer about tobacco use at all. Their use of it is irrelevant. As a matter of fact, you are not really suppose to be pointing out sin in non-believers at all. You should be worrying about your own spiritual growth instead of operating as a false prophet in other believers lives. Worry about your own beam in your own eye. Being a meddlesome busybody in other men's lives ranks right up there with murderer, thief and evil-doer in scripture.

1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters.

So someone else's tobacco habit is none of your concern or business. To try to attempt to convince them it is sin would be sin on YOUR PART.

Sorry again.
I should have pointed out that the unbeliever is interested in knowing what God's view is. There are interested in knowing the truth. So they ask.
How do you respond to such individuals?

Simple, there is no view given in scripture one way or the other. Since sin is violation of Yah's law and there is no law about tobacco, there can be no sin involved.

That is unless you think tobacco usage falls under the term sorcery which pertains to drug usage by the ancient definition. IMO smoking of say opium would fall under that category of sorcery by that ancient usage.

There is clearly a difference between sin and things that could be considered unwise. I agree that smoking tobacco would fall into the unwise category.

Religious people clearly assign sin to things that are not scripturally considered sin. A good example is the refusal to consume any alcohol thinking that because the body is a temple, it can't have any alcohol without it being sin while scripture is not against alcohol but against the misuse of it in excess. Strong drink was one of the things used as part of the feasts of Israel for celebration. The pharisees accused Yeshua of being a 'wine bibber'. So it was them in sin, not Yeshua for consuming wine and lets not forget Yeshua called them a 'nest of vipers' and 'children of their father the devil' for their attacks claiming others were in sin for not following their religious traditions.

Any religious group claiming tobacco usage is sin would also fall under the category of 'nest of viper' and 'children of their father the devil' IMO.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 56 by Yahu]

Plus, not only is tobacco sacred to Native Americans, but it is a crop that really helped make America. No John Rolf, no tobacco, no colonies. It is part of the American character, and its praises have been sung by many writers and poets. Mark Twain was right. These cobs are just great. Today, there is a big health scare on tobacco and many other substances. But those things come and go. At one time, the medical profession taught that tomatoes were absolute poison, not to mention that they made all kinds of claims about the negative effects o pot that were later found to be highly questionable.

However, I think we are getting a bit off from the OP. There are religious groups that set very strict standards for their members. I know of a local church that insists all the males should wear leather jackets, and the women floor-length skirts. And then you have sects such as the Amish, where you can have only calendars on the wall. I, however, do not agree with this top-down micro-management approach, where the church is your conscience. I think people should be encouraged to use their own conscience and choose for themselves.

[Peds nurse]

In light of Luke 5.31, how Christian is this exclusionary attitude and requirement?

Should Christian groups welcome of exclude those who are still struggling with their bad habits?

What was the question that Jesus was answering?

“Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?�

31 Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.�

Jesus, was eating with the sinners, and the Pharisee's had a problem with that. What I learn from this particular verse, is that when we just hang around those who know God and have salvation, we are excluding the very people who need his healing. Jesus spent many of his days, preaching the good news to those who were otherwise shunned from society. The forgiveness of sins wasn't just for the "elite" crowd, but offered to everyone.

Also, just for the record, I think that we put way too much "spiritual weight" on our shoulders. Jesus, cared more about where the people's hearts were, than he ever did of drinking, smoking, or whatever bad habit we have. I believe, that if we know our God, and develop a relationship with Him, He will convict of us our sins.

He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and regarded others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other; for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted.�

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 56 by Yahu]

Okay, so in what category would you put viewing pornography? Is this a sin, or not?
What about smoking tobaco, instead of sniffing, or drinking?
Or dumping garbage on someone's land?
I never saw these mentioned in the Bible.

Are none of these sins?

[hoghead1]

[Replying to theStudent]

Well, I realize you are asking him, but if I might butt in, whether these are sins or not is hard to say. It all depends on the circumstances. For example, dumping garbage on someone's land may be OK if they allowed you to, or if you had some valid reason for so doing. It's like asking is it OK to potty on somebody's property. Well, generally, no, of course. However, if you were like us, we who had to work on our train, over in the city park, during the off season, when the park was closed and so were all the bathrooms, we had no choice but to pee on the property. Drinking may or may not be OK. It just depends. If you can enjoy a few brews and getting tight once in a while and are still able to successfully get on with the rest of your life, no problem. If, however, you are prone to alcoholism, to drinking to the point where you can't really function anymore, and are running into all sorts of legal, financial, and family problems, then it's time to quit but good.