The 144,000

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Checkpoint
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The 144,000

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

A question that is often debated, and it seems there are more that the usual two opinions or schools of thought.

The 144,000 are a group that is described in Revelation 7 and 14.

As we know, Revelation is itself a controversial book, largely because of its style and the language it uses.

Language that is sometimes literal and sometimes figurative or metaphorical. It is hard to know which best fits what is being portrayed.

Some see the 144,000 as being a literal number to be taken as literal Israelites.

Others see them as a symbolic number, and as being spiritual Israelites, meaning they are believers both Jew and Gentile.

Yet others have concluded that they are literally 144,000 yet they are not literal but spiritual Israelites.

What is your take, and why do you think that?
Revelation 7:

2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Revelation 14:

1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.
Last edited by Checkpoint on Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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theStudent
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Post #81

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 73 by Checkpoint]

Well you gave your opinion before.
Scriptural evidence, not opinion show you to be wrong.

Now you say:
The tent of God is not any such thing.
Well that's just another one of your opinions. You have not said what it is. You just make blanket statements without any supportive evidence.
Where is your evidence for your assertion?

(Revelation 21:2-4)
. . .I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind
, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them.
And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.�

I should have said more accurately... (After all we can't seperate the lovely couple. :) )
The tent of God is the bride of Christ with its bridegroom, Christ Jesus. The 144,000 and Christ. The kingdom. It is spread over the great multitude, so the great multitude cannot be the 144,000, nor the kingdom. They are an earthly class of righteous persons under the kingdom. Both Revelation 7:15-17 and Revelation 21:2-4 are referring to the same event.

Look, I just admitted a mistake I made, but I understand it would take more for you to admit you are wrong.

Do you agree with the above?
What scriptural evidence do you have against it?

On these forums, you are supposed to provide evidence, rather than just say, "Nay." Otherwise, it is just your opinion.
If you are happy to just give you opinion on the forums, I can live with that. ;)
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #82

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Checkpoint wrote: God chose how to describe our future in the passages I quoted, not me.
Yes, God did describe our future, but you evidently cannot explain it because your explanation is contradictory and makes no sense whatsoever. And instead of clarifying when challenged you simply draw attention to your over complicated, contradictory, nonsensical "non-answer".

Jesus and the other chosen kings rule in heaven (Rev 20:6). There will be an earth like a paradise where the meek will live (see Mat 5:5).

How complicated is the above sentence? Those that understand truth can explain it. Those that don't... can't.

JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #83

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 81 by JehovahsWitness]
Checkpoint wrote:

God chose how to describe our future in the passages I quoted, not me.


Yes, God did describe our future, but you evidently cannot explain it because your explanation is contradictory and makes no sense whatsoever. And instead of clarifying when challenged you simply draw attention to your over complicated, contradictory, nonsensical "non-answer".
To which post or posts does your colorful description apply?

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Post #84

Post by tam »

Peace to you JW, and to Checkpoint as well, and to all,
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Checkpoint wrote: God chose how to describe our future in the passages I quoted, not me.
Yes, God did describe our future, but you evidently cannot explain it because your explanation is contradictory and makes no sense whatsoever. And instead of clarifying when challenged you simply draw attention to your over complicated, contradictory, nonsensical "non-answer".

Jesus and the other chosen kings rule in heaven (Rev 20:6). There will be an earth like a paradise where the meek will live (see Mat 5:5).

How complicated is the above sentence? Those that understand truth can explain it. Those that don't... can't.

JW

Revelation 20:6

Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. (niv translation, but we can use any translation)

The passage states that they will reign with Christ a thousand years. The passage states nothing about the location.



Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. Matthew 5:5


Yes, they will inherit the earth. They will also reign with Christ for a thousand years.

Christ is the King over ALL creation, yes? He is the heir, so would he not stand to inherit ALL creation (including the earth)?

So perhaps some simply do not understand the 'meek' part.

Are not those who serve Christ and God - who will rule with Him - the meek ones?

He who wishes to be greatest must become the least?

Is that not what His servants/slaves are learning now? Just as Christ made Himself a slave and obeyed His Father in ALL things (making Him the MOST meek and humble)? Learning how to serve, becoming slaves as Christ did? Being meek NOW, so as to be ABLE to serve in the Kingdom with Christ THEN?

Is not Moses considered to have been the meekest of all men? Yet Moses led the Israelites and was very bold before men. Bold before men... MEEK before God.

A meek one is one who is meek before GOD.

Would that not describe first CHRIST... then also those who serve Him? Such as the anointed ones?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #85

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote:Yes, they will inherit the earth. They will also reign with Christ for a thousand years.
So if the meek that inherit the earth will reign. And the resurrected kings that rule with Jesus will reign... I have one question.

Who will they "reign" over?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #86

Post by tam »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
tam wrote:Yes, they will inherit the earth. They will also reign with Christ for a thousand years.
So if the meek that inherit the earth will reign. And the resurrected kings that rule with Jesus will reign... I have one question.

Who will they "reign" over?

The subjects of the Kingdom. The sheep from the sheep and the goats (people of the nations who are alive when Christ returns) parable; people who are NOT Christian but who do good to Christ by doing good to even a least one of His brothers (not knowing that they were doing good to Christ); including those of the nations who prove by their words and deeds that they have the law upon their hearts because they do NATURALLY the requirements of that law (such as being merciful so that mercy is shown them; or forgiving so that they too are forgiven, etc).

These ones are also invited into the Kingdom - as subjects of the Kingdom.



(Those from the second resurrection - the resurrection of the dead - are judged according to the deeds that are recorded in their individual scrolls (using the same criteria as above). Some to the second death, and some to life. But this does not happen until the end of the thousand years)




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #87

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
tam wrote:Yes, they will inherit the earth. They will also reign with Christ for a thousand years.
So if the meek that inherit the earth will reign. And the resurrected kings that rule with Jesus will reign... I have one question.

Who will they "reign" over?

The subjects of the Kingdom. The sheep from the sheep and the goats (people of the nations who are alive when Christ returns) parable
How can the subjects of the kingdom be the goats when the goats are destroyed when Christ returns to rule?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #88

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 85 by tam]
tam wrote:The subjects of the Kingdom. The sheep from the sheep and the goats (people of the nations who are alive when Christ returns) parable

Christ declares the sheep righteous as soon as he returns. If Christs and the meek rule over the sheep are you saying there are two classes of righteous people?

(1) Those that rule (the meek that inherit the earth)

and

(2) those that are ruled over (the subjects of the kingdom)?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #89

Post by tam »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
tam wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
tam wrote:Yes, they will inherit the earth. They will also reign with Christ for a thousand years.
So if the meek that inherit the earth will reign. And the resurrected kings that rule with Jesus will reign... I have one question.

Who will they "reign" over?

The subjects of the Kingdom. The sheep from the sheep and the goats (people of the nations who are alive when Christ returns) parable
How can the subjects of the kingdom be the goats when the goats are destroyed when Christ returns to rule?

I think you have misunderstood. I said the sheep FROM the sheep and the goats parable.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #90

Post by tam »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 85 by tam]
tam wrote:The subjects of the Kingdom. The sheep from the sheep and the goats (people of the nations who are alive when Christ returns) parable

Christ declares the sheep righteous as soon as he returns. If Christs and the meek rule over the sheep are you saying there are two classes of righteous people?
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them. This will take place on the day when God judges people's secrets through [Jesus] Christ, as my gospel declares. Romans 2:13-16

Right?

Those who belong to Christ (who are anointed with holy spirit, who are being taught as we speak, to serve, to love, to be merciful, and who love and follow Him) rule WITH Him.

Yet God in HIS mercy and HIS righteousness also invite in those who have proven to have the law (of love) written upon their hearts, made manifest by what they DO. Which is why Christ speaks to them of what they have done (to even the least of his brothers). They have already shown that they are not the enemies of Christ and God.

They might not know them, but they can be known BY Christ and God by what they DO.


I'm not sure why this would be an issue. We know that there are those who rule with Christ and there are those who are the subjects of the Kingdom. It is in line with mercy and with love (and with truth) that the merciful and the forgiving and the peaceful, etc, would be invited into the Kingdom EVEN IF they did not know Christ during their lifetime.


Two different classes of Christians (earthly or heavenly), however, is not what Christ or the apostles taught.

Go and make disciples of all nations... teaching them to obey everything I commanded you.

Christ said that to the apostles and one thing he commanded the apostles was to eat and drink of his body and his blood until he returned.




May anyone wishing and anything thirsting, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of LIFE."


Peace to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy


edited to fix quote box
Last edited by tam on Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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