Heaven & the Resurrection

[JehovahsWitness]

Many believe that the righteous men and women from bible times such as Abraham, died and went to heaven.

If that is the case for you, how do you reconcile this with the idea of a future resurrection on "the last day"? What do you think this refers to.

JOHN 11: 24
Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 89 by Checkpoint]

Many suggestions can be made from scripture, including the one made by Talishi.

I do draw my conclusion from scripture, that the dead are sleeping.

Not from a vision or a parable, but from the plain words of Jesus and of Paul.

As you say, there are many suggestions that can be made from scripture.
Are you suggesting that your conclusion is the best?

I am suggesting that the best course to take is to accept what Jesus and Paul said plainly and repeatedly.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 91 by Checkpoint]

I am suggesting that the best course to take is to accept what Jesus and Paul said plainly and repeatedly.

Can the word, say... "sleep" be a METAPHOR for "death"?

It seems that there might be KINDS of "death" in the Bible.
Are you quite sure that your interpretation of Greek translations is the best?

Is that what you are advocating your personal OPINION or a fact that we should all of us believe is true?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 91 by Checkpoint]

I am suggesting that the best course to take is to accept what Jesus and Paul said plainly and repeatedly.

Are there any other verses in the Bible that may seem to contradict the verses that you have picked?

Sure there are.

When it seems verses are in conflict, what is the sensible and logical way to reconcile them?

To accept verses that are plainly spoken, and revisit those that are vision or parable or other than intended to be taken literally or woodenly.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 93 by Checkpoint]

I am suggesting that the best course to take is to accept what Jesus and Paul said plainly and repeatedly.

Are there any other verses in the Bible that may seem to contradict the verses that you have picked?

Sure there are.

When it seems verses are in conflict, what is the sensible and logical way to reconcile them?

I would say that one good way is by debate.
Some ideas are better than other ideas, may the best ideas win.

To accept verses that are plainly spoken, and revisit those that are vision or parable or other than intended to be taken literally or woodenly.

Are we to discount words in the Bible if they are from visions or parables?
How do we decide the intentions of the Bible authors, when they write something?

Isn't that up to our opinions?

Aren't we basing our opinions on what the Bible says, and not our guesses as to the Bible authors "intentions"?

How can we know the Bible's authors intentions?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 93 by Checkpoint]

I am suggesting that the best course to take is to accept what Jesus and Paul said plainly and repeatedly.

Are there any other verses in the Bible that may seem to contradict the verses that you have picked?

Sure there are.

When it seems verses are in conflict, what is the sensible and logical way to reconcile them?

I would say that one good way is by debate.
Some ideas are better than other ideas, may the best ideas win.

To accept verses that are plainly spoken, and revisit those that are vision or parable or other than intended to be taken literally or woodenly.

Are we to discount words in the Bible if they are from visions or parables?
How do we decide the intentions of the Bible authors, when they write something?

Isn't that up to our opinions?

Aren't we basing our opinions on what the Bible says, and not our guesses as to the Bible authors "intentions"?

How can we know the Bible's authors intentions?

Fair points.

We do not discount some words, but we do, or should, take into account the type of language being employed.

It is up to us how we approach these things and how we come to our conclusions.

Debate is good but it seldom leads anyone to a change of view, or even to some modification.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 95 by Checkpoint]



[center]The goals of debate: Part one
Our approach[/center]

Are we to discount words in the Bible if they are from visions or parables?
How do we decide the intentions of the Bible authors, when they write something?

Isn't that up to our opinions?

Aren't we basing our opinions on what the Bible says, and not our guesses as to the Bible authors "intentions"?

How can we know the Bible's authors intentions?

Fair points.

Well, just to be as clear as possible, they aren't points. They are questions.
I just want to be able to understand what you think and see how I can agree.

One of my goals in here is to learn as much as possible about religious thinking.

We do not discount some words, but we do, or should, take into account the type of language being employed.

It seems to me that most translators would.

It is up to us how we approach these things and how we come to our conclusions.

"How we approach"

Are you saying that translating the words of the Bible from the original Greek and Hebrew is not enough in the way of knowing what the words mean?

All of the words of the Bible must be interpreted from our modern perspective, the poetic meaning? Is there more than one possible meaning to a poem?

Could you explain what you mean precisely by "approach"?
I use critical thinking.. what approach do you take?

Debate is good but it seldom leads anyone to a change of view, or even to some modification.

The more one is not open to new ideas, the more that would be true, I suppose.
When I am debating ideas.. I am searching for the best ones, not to keep mine.

Do you seldom change your mind in debates, or the minds of others?
What would be your purpose of engaging in debates, then?

Why not have friendly discussions, instead?

I can't seem to find it, but I have stated in these forums, my goals of debates.

I'll try to remember:

1. Learn
2. Mutual understanding
3. Achieve agreements

Not exactly what I wrote before.. but this will do.
That's why I debate.

Why do you?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by JehovahsWitness]

Why would it be important to believe rightly about a ressurection? Why would God care? If God is just, God would know that none of us has ever witnessed a resurrection, and God would not condemn a doubter for doubting something highly doubtful! The Bible is full of contradictions; this is just one more on top of the rest. So, how do I reconcile a contradiction? I just accept the fact that it is one and move on, and I simply ask myself, "What is the writer trying to say in this passage, and what is the writer trying to say in that passage?"

God knows all hearts, and he would not destroy someone who just didn't understand something. The people that he will not allow to remain are those that are incorrigibly evil, that have not a shred of love for Him or for other people.

[marco]

Debate is good but it seldom leads anyone to a change of view, or even to some modification.

We often change imperceptibly, Checkpoint. Though we discuss heaven and the resurrection, our minds move in various ways in response to the posts we read, and Newton's Law, I think, applies; we change direction, though we may not believe so. We also change our views on different posters - one would hope in a favourable way.

When I have discussed something here, on the resurrection for example, and I listen to a text or homily on that topic when necessity takes me into church, then quite certainly I am influenced by the positive or negative views I have read earlier. Go well.

[gordsd]

[Replying to onewithhim]

God knows all hearts, and he would not destroy someone who just didn't understand something. The people that he will not allow to remain are those that are incorrigibly evil, that have not a shred of love for Him or for other people.

he would not destroy someone who just didn't understand something.

This has been my point for some time--thank you. Those that doubt God do not necessarily hate God or God's ways. They simply see no evidence to believe that God actually works among humans or has a hand in history or to believe in fantastic tales. Many atheists/agnostics are highly moral and live humane lives. It can be said that they do not love God because they cannot love what they doubt; however, a doubter can still love those around her/him and appreciate the beauty she/he sees everyday. A doubter may not be able to honor that which she/he doesn't know, but still be able to honor that which is "said" to be Its creation.

[Escobar]

[Replying to post 97 by onewithhim]

The people that he will not allow to remain are those that are incorrigibly evil,

If this quote of your's was true then these prophecies wouldn't be true.

Psalm 31:
23: Love the LORD, all you his saints! The LORD preserves the faithful, but abundantly requites him who acts haughtily.

Psalm 22:
25: From thee comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear him.
26: The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD! May your hearts live for ever!
27: All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him.
28: For dominion belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.
29: Yea, to him shall all the proud of the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and he who cannot keep himself alive.
30: Posterity shall serve him; [b]men shall tell of the Lord to the coming generation,
31: and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, that he has wrought it[/b].

I Timothy 4:10
10: For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Micah 4:
6: In that day, says the LORD, I will assemble the lame and gather those who have been driven away, and those whom I have afflicted;
7: and the lame I will make the remnant; and those who were cast off, a strong nation; and the LORD will reign over them in Mount Zion from this time forth and for evermore.

Isaiah 25
6: On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of fat things, a feast of wine on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wine on the lees well refined.
7: And he will destroy on this mountain the covering that is cast over all peoples, the veil that is spread over all nations.
8: He will swallow up death for ever, and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth; for the LORD has spoken.
9: It will be said on that day, "Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, that he might save us. This is the LORD; we have waited for him; let us be glad and rejoice in his salvation."

Titus 2:11
11: For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men,