The 144,000

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Checkpoint
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The 144,000

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

A question that is often debated, and it seems there are more that the usual two opinions or schools of thought.

The 144,000 are a group that is described in Revelation 7 and 14.

As we know, Revelation is itself a controversial book, largely because of its style and the language it uses.

Language that is sometimes literal and sometimes figurative or metaphorical. It is hard to know which best fits what is being portrayed.

Some see the 144,000 as being a literal number to be taken as literal Israelites.

Others see them as a symbolic number, and as being spiritual Israelites, meaning they are believers both Jew and Gentile.

Yet others have concluded that they are literally 144,000 yet they are not literal but spiritual Israelites.

What is your take, and why do you think that?
Revelation 7:

2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Revelation 14:

1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.
Last edited by Checkpoint on Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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JehovahsWitness
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Post #101

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 99 by tam]

I can't seem to glean the answer for my question from what you wrote: do the goats live as subjects of the kingdom or do they not?
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tam
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Post #102

Post by tam »

[Replying to post 100 by JehovahsWitness]

From the understanding given to me, no they do not.

Peace!

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Post #103

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: [Replying to post 100 by JehovahsWitness]

From the understanding given to me, no they do not.

Peace!

So we have two groups one ruling with Jesus the others subjects of the rule and those judged as "goats" cast out. (Your beliefs are more or less exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses preach from door to door, we call that the new system or the new world).

What do you mean by cast out? I'm guessing you mean "in hell" but in any case not enjoying being subjects of the kingdom rule.
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Romans 14:8

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Post #104

Post by tam »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
tam wrote: [Replying to post 100 by JehovahsWitness]

From the understanding given to me, no they do not.

Peace!

So we have two groups one ruling with Jesus the others subjects of the rule and those judged as "goats" cast out. (Your beliefs are more or less exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses preach from door to door, we call that the new system or the new world).

What do you mean by cast out? I'm guessing you mean "in hell" but in any case not enjoying being subjects of the kingdom rule.
Sorry, I'm on a phone, so this might not be as tidyas I like with quotes.

The identity of the sheep and goats differs, in the understanding I was given, and the wts teaching. But if the wts states that the sheep and goats are separated at the time Christ returns then yes. I mean, that's kind of right there in black and white also, right?

That was not their teaching at the time I studied with them. But I know the teaching has since changed.

There is no "hell.

I mean nothing more than what I said with "cast out". They would be outside the kingdom that is upon the earth. Still subject to death (not defeated until after the thousand years, the resurrection of the dead, the judgment.



Peace again to you.
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
Tammy

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Post #105

Post by onewithhim »

I don't remember any change in the teaching about the goats. Just clarification for those who didn't get it the first time.

O:)

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Post #106

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: I mean nothing more than what I said with "cast out". They would be outside the kingdom that is upon the earth.
So if the kingdom is ruling upon the whole planet, are they "cast out" into outter space? Where are they living if they are not living on the earth? Or are you suggesting that Jesus and his co-rulers will not rule over the WHOLE earth?

Please clarify

JW
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #107

Post by ttruscott »

tam wrote:But there are two groups of people - yes: one group reigns with Christ as king-priests (for a thousand years); the other group enters as subjects.
Does not Rev 5:9...and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. 10 You have made them [those purchased with His blood] to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth. strike you as the prediction that everyone will have the rights and duties of a king and of priests, serving each other and their GOD perfectly?
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Post #108

Post by 2timothy316 »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
tam wrote: I mean nothing more than what I said with "cast out". They would be outside the kingdom that is upon the earth.
So if the kingdom is ruling upon the whole planet, are they "cast out" into outter space? Where are they living if they are not living on the earth? Or are you suggesting that Jesus and his co-rulers will not rule over the WHOLE earth?

Please clarify

JW
Indeed, what part of the Earth will not be part of the kingdom where those 'cast out' will be? Furthermore, who will rule that part of the Earth that is not part of God's Kingdom? Where is that in the Bible? I look forward to this answer as well.

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Post #109

Post by 2timothy316 »

tam wrote: But if the wts states that the sheep and goats are separated at the time Christ returns then yes. I mean, that's kind of right there in black and white also, right?

That was not their teaching at the time I studied with them. But I know the teaching has since changed.
Which is why studying the Bible never ends and most of the time it is the the passage of time that reveals what God's Word means. Like Daniel 9:25 and the 70 weeks. I'm sure that one the reasons they understood the 70 weeks was not literally 70 weeks because when the 70 literal weeks past, nothing happened. Much like the separation of the sheep and the goats. We thought the preaching work was doing the separation. Only to find out over time, well some of those we thought must have been goats turned out to be sheep. These later accepted the Word of Jehovah God, the Bible. So the only conclusion was it must be that this separating must come later. The Bible urges us, “Keep perceiving what the will of Jehovah is.�—EPHESIANS 5:17. So we had to change what we taught to lineup with what we perceived the Bible actually taught.

Though the rejection of what the Bible says is still not wise, that doesn't make a person a 'goat'. Thus there is still time to accept it because the separation hasn't started yet.

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Post #110

Post by tam »

Peace to you!

Of course there are people on the earth outside of the Kingdom (during the thousand years).

First, Christ casts the goats out into the darkness (where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth - which represents jealousy, bitterness, regret, anger). It is in darkness, because it is not in the LIGHT (Christ).


Second, at the end of the thousand years, 'gog and magog' march across the breadth of the earth to surround and (try to) battle against the camp God loves, the city he loves. How can they march across the breadth of the earth unless they are on the earth? And how can they be inside the Kingdom when only the righteous are permitted inside the Kingdom?


Is there rebellion in the Kingdom (or in Paradise, if your thoughts are that Paradise is on the earth, but not the Kingdom? Are there those who do not subject themselves to Christ on the earth, in Paradise?) Do you think that Christ permitted inside the Kingdom an entire army of rebellious, murderous people? And why would they ride across the earth to attack the camp and city God loves IF they already had access to the things IN the Kingdom (or in Paradise, if you think these are two separate places): the tree of life, the water of life, healing, light, eternal life?


**

Also for Ted:


The "thousand years" is (in part) for the separation of the sheep and the goats, and for the healing of the nations (no more tears, no more mourning, etc), and for the wedding banquet (the celebration of the marriage between Christ and His Bride). So that there is a purpose for kings and priests with Christ. To serve and assist one another, sure, but also to serve and to assist the sheep who did not know Christ, but who were known BY Christ BY what they DID.



**

If you want me to describe exactly what that (the Kingdom on earth during the thousand years) is going to look like, I cannot. I can get a sense of it, but I have questions still. I don't worry about that though, because my Lord always answers them, as and when He knows is right.


I do know from my Lord that no one is destroyed by Him - and that those outside the Kingdom are only destroyed (fire comes down from heaven and devours them) BECAUSE they ride out to attack and destroy those God loves. Because Satan has somehow deceived them into thinking that they CAN take what is not theirs. Same as he once deceived Adam and Eve that they could do the same.

Those God loves are protected from those intent on destroying them.



Hope that helps,


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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