Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

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Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #1

Post by Blastcat »

Hi gang !

Once again, while showering, something came to mind...

William Lane Craig is famous for his re-working of the old Kalam Cosmological argument for the existence of God. Here it is in a nut-shell for those who might need a bit of a refresher. Craig states the Kalam cosmological argument as a brief syllogism, most commonly rendered as follows:

______________

The argument:

P1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause;
P2. The universe began to exist;

Therefore:

C1. The universe has a cause.

From the conclusion of the initial syllogism, he appends a further premise and conclusion based upon ontological analysis of the properties of the cause:

P3. The universe has a cause;
P4. If the universe has a cause, then an uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful;

Therefore:

C. An uncased, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful.

____________

This thread wants to take a good look at P1. that is, the very first premise of the argument that states :"Whatever begins to exist has a cause."

As in all arguments, if we accept that this premise is true, we move on to the next premise, and so on, to it's conclusion that must follow from one to the next without any gaps.

Now, if we cannot demonstrate that a premise in the argument is TRUE, then the argument may be VALID, but not sound. The conclusion we get from an argument is just as weak as it's weakest link, so to speak.

So, what about the first premise?

Is it TRUE that "Whatever begins to exist has a cause"?

I am a skeptic at heart, so I am suspicious about that.


Let me give some preliminary reasons, that I got while showering with my Spiderman "Spidey Sense" Soft Soap ®... ( very refreshing ) :


1. Right off the bat, I would have my skeptical spidey sense tingling by the sentence itself. It seems to imply that some things begin to exist, and that others may not begin to exist. I'm not too sure what that means... What does it MEAN to say that something has a "beginning" to it's existence? What does it MEAN to say that not all things begin to exist? Which kinds of things begin to exist, and which kinds of things don't begin to exist? Now, we need rigorous definitions, don't we? Anyone has those? I sure don't. The more that I look, the more confused I get.

2. It doesn't say what hasn't begun to exist. But I suspect that the case is very well chosen. Some people might protest that there is a difference between saying that something doesn't begin to exist and saying that something hasn't yet begun to exist. We are now having to make a distinction that is very subtly grammatical.

3. Of course, if something has not yet begun to exist, it cannot yet exist. But if we are trying to prove that something has caused the universe, it at least has to exist in some way. Otherwise, the argument... is weird.

4. The Kalam is very old.. It wasn't always phrased the way that WLC does. In fact, WLC has introduced the word "begins to" ... because before we could ask "Who caused God?". So, it seems that Craig wants to save the argument by replacing "exists" by "begins to exist". If only GOD doesn't "begin to exist", then I see special pleading going on.

5. Craig says this about the nature of "God's" infinity:

"God's infinity is, as it were, qualitative, not quantitative. It means that God is metaphysically necessary, morally perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, eternal, and so on."

In other words, when Craig uses the term "infinite" to refer to a being who doesn't begin, he isn't talking about numbers, but characteristics. I "began to exist" in the middle 50's. See how that's a number? I could have started counting the years of my "existence" at 0, or 1, or some other NUMBER, but it's weird to think that we don't COUNT things without numbers.. but if there are no NUMBERS, to me, it's weird to say that something began or didn't begin. Time is a series of numbers, one after another.. seconds, minutes, days, weeks, months, years.. eons.. we count those, because they are NUMBERED. If it can't be counted, I don't know how it can be called "time", and if it isn't "time" we are talking about.. causation seems a bit weird to be talking about.. and to begin.. implies "time"... so again.. very weird.

So, when I read "Whatever BEGINS to exist.." I think "What on earth is Craig talking about"? A quality or a measurable instance of time? If the word BEGINS is an instance of time that is measurable for everything ELSE but "God", this is special pleading once again.

6. The second part.. "A CAUSE" ... this is the really REALLY weird part.. and I will keep it short. You see, Craig doesn't like infinite regresses.. so, the universe can't be it's own cause due to an infinite regress.. what cause the cause of the cause.. and so on.. Physical matter NOT of this universe can't be the cause because.. what's the cause of THAT.. and so on.. more infinite regress. The very ODD thing about Craig's solution, "God", is that it is eternal in the past.. In other words, it seems to "cause the cause of the cause of the cause.. " in an infinite regress. To me, and this is just preliminary thinking, he solves one infinity.. "Cause" with another infinity "God".


Just some thoughts.. I have my doubts about the first premise.

_____________

So, here are the questions for debate:


1. Is it true that things that have a beginning have a cause?
2. How something hasn't begun to exist, continue to exist?

_____________


:)

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Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #71

Post by Willum »

[Replying to For_The_Kingdom]
Well, on naturalism, either you have to believe that the universe popped in to being uncaused out of nothing...or you believe in infinite regression.
If you aren't going to read other posts, why are you here? Please try to understand what people are telling you:

The universe neither popped into being nor is there infinite regression!
The universe neither popped into being nor is there infinite regression!
The universe neither popped into being nor is there infinite regression!

Trying again:
The universe is made up of atoms.
Atoms are immortal. They were never created, nor are they ever destroyed. They only change. Unlike God, we can prove this.

Since we can prove this, there is no need to assume a God.
So, going back...
Try to think of an example where this is not true.

(PS I am not applying the First Law of Thermo, that was an erroneous conclusion of another poster.)

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Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #72

Post by For_The_Kingdom »

Blastcat wrote: That's not what the first premise refers to.
This thread is about the first premise of Craig's Kalam Cosmological Argument. I suggest that you look it up:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalam_cos ... l_argument
Thanks, but I really didn't need all of that. The first premise of the KCA is..

1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause

And I stated that the IDEA BEHIND P1 IS THAT "THINGS DON'T JUST BEGIN TO EXIST WITHOUT A CAUSE".

Did you not comprehend that?? What makes it worse is here you are telling me what the premise is about (p1) and the first sentence of my post to you was "the IDEA BEHIND P1"....so I identified P1 as the topic of interest, didn't I?

So what are you talking about?
Blastcat wrote: Well, I don't know about most people.
I just know about myself.

That's why, I usually just talk about what I think.. and not what most people think.
And I surely do NOT try to tell my opponents what they think.

I ask them, instead.
I suggest you do the same.

I don't PRETEND to believe that you can read minds.
Oh, my bad. Sorry for giving you the benefit of the doubt that if you came home and found your furniture tore up and in disarray and you were told that the animals from the Jumanji movie popped into being, uncaused, out of nothing, and began to tear the place apart......sorry for including you with the long list of rational people that would not believe such a tale.

Because that is basically the jest of the point I was making, but if you refuse to be included in the group of people who WOULDN'T believe that kind of nonsense or anything like it...again, I apologize.
Blastcat wrote: We aren't discussing the "MOA", either.
Ooops, sorry again. I didn't know I was forbidden from making an inference to something that I felt related to the subject at hand. My bad.
Blastcat wrote: You must consider it important to let us know that you believe your opponents aren't interested in the evidence.
SMH.
Blastcat wrote: Let's not.
But you are free to create a new thread about it.
Now, you are on to something O:)
Blastcat wrote: Yeah, I can plainly see that you can't articulate your reasoning.
Unfortunately, the two arguments aren't the same.
Good, then that would mean that we have two, independent arguments that defeat your position instead of just one, single argument.

Thanks for that enlightenment.
Blastcat wrote: One way of knowing is that they don't use the same words.
"I have a taste for a burger, I am going to grab some ground beef from Walmart"

"I could use a burger, I am headed up to Wally-world to buy some burger meat"

Different "words"...same "point".

Next..
Blastcat wrote: It's valid/sound, but you just can't articulate why.
Thanks for the input.
I said I couldn't articulate why one version the argument is different from the other....not why the argument is valid/sound.

Next..

Blastcat wrote: 2. How something hasn't begun to exist, continue to exist?
Blastcat wrote: Well, that explains it, then.
Now, why didn't I think of that?
Because you would rather apparently believe the possibility of things popping into being uncaused out of nothing....it is hard to "think of that", when you are busy "thinking of....that".
Blastcat wrote: Of course, it could just as breezily said that some things are necessarily FALSE.
:)
No one is denying that.
Last edited by For_The_Kingdom on Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #73

Post by alexxcJRO »

[Replying to post 70 by For_The_Kingdom]


Wait a minute my friend.:))
But you said :

“The argument is valid/sound and yet another reason why theism has more explanatory power than atheism. “

theism
[thee-iz-uh m]
Spell Syllables
Examples
Word Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun
1.
the belief in one God as the creator and ruler of the universe, without rejection of revelation (distinguished from deism ).
2.
belief in the existence of a god or gods (opposed to atheism ).
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/theism

theism
NOUN
[mass noun] Belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe:
‘there are many different forms of theism’
Compare with deism
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/theism

Q: How do you get from Leibniz argument being sound to theism( Belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe) having more explanatory power then atheism?


Q: So you do not agree with being one personal creator who intervenes in the creation(your God) as a cause for our universe?(Yes/No question)

Q: Are you a Christian ?(Yes/No question)



"Third, only one personal agent is needed, and we don't need to go beyond what is necessary to explain the effect....so, only one agent is needed to explain it..therefore, to go beyond what is needed to explain it would be unnecessary. "

Yet there could be that more then one personal creator are responsible for the creation.
The option remains and it could be true regardless of your subjective opinion.


“Geez. Well, the good thing about philosophical evidence is that "it is completely independent of physics...so in other words, the problem of infinite regression applies to any multi-verse quantum gravity psuedo universe that you'd like to posit. “

I don’t care about infinite regress because I am only talking about what created our universe.

How the multi-verse came to be is other thing. The multiverse may be uncaused like your god.

Our universe may been created because of natural processes inside a multiverse.
So saying only god can be an explanation is an argument from ignorance and God of the Gaps.

I accept both God or multiverse hypothesis. But I am not convinced by neither.
I am not a strong atheist.
It may be that there are no gods.
It may be there is a single creator or multiple creators.
It may be that a billion old alien race from one of the universes inside the multiverse created our universe in a successful experiment.
It may be deism is true or theism or pantheism and so one.
Blah, Blah and so one ad infinitum. Explanations could be endless.
Last edited by alexxcJRO on Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:28 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #74

Post by FarWanderer »

Willum wrote: [Replying to FarWanderer]

True, but do you want a conversation about "mind," or the Kalam'?

I am sticking with Kalam', and by logic, the mind has NOT always existed.
There have been a flux of atoms in and out of anyone's brain, that if we viewed time in reverse, would diminish until conception.
So then, you are acknowledging that there is in fact something that begins to exist? This would mean your claim
Willum wrote:So, there are things in reality that do not "begin to exist." In fact, everything.
is false. The followup questions would then be...

1) Do minds have a cause?
2) Do all other things that begin to exist, if any, have a cause?

If "yes" to both, then "Everything that begins to exist has a cause" is TRUE.

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Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #75

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 69 by For_The_Kingdom]




[center]Some people just gotta believe in something.
Part One[/center]


For_The_Kingdom wrote:
Well, on naturalism, either you have to believe that the universe popped in to being uncaused out of nothing...or you believe in infinite regression.

Doesn't matter, as both concepts are equally absurd and grossly unjustifiable.

And some people make up an ad hoc eternal supernatural magical being that somehow, creates itself.

And SOME people don't believe in something until they have evidence.
You might have heard of skepticism.



:)

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Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #76

Post by Willum »

[Replying to FarWanderer]

FW: You keep shoveling erroneous assumptions on me, please don't make a habit of it.

Please tell me that I don't have to explain the difference between some things and all things.
That I don't need to explain the difference between creation and transformation.
There are things in reality that do not "begin to exist." In fact, everything.
Everything is made up of atoms. Atoms do not begin to exist, they are eternal.

Things made up of atoms may be transformed.
What is so difficult to understand?

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Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #77

Post by For_The_Kingdom »

Blastcat wrote:
And some people make up an ad hoc eternal supernatural magical being that somehow, creates itself.
Wait a minute, did you just say "some people"?

Well, I don't know about "some" people.
I just know about myself.

That's why, I usually just talk about what I think.. and not what most people think.
And I surely do NOT try to tell my opponents what they think.

I ask them, instead.
I suggest you do the same.

I don't PRETEND to believe that you can read minds.


:)

Easy money.

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Post #78

Post by Cephus »

[Replying to post 56 by hoghead1]

I'm going back to the OP where he specifically introduces a personal creator. I know that you don't have to, the OP did. But beyond that, Kalam makes a lot of unwarranted assumptions, which is the problem when you don't update your apologetics as new information and ideas become available.

For one, it assumes that infinite regress is simply impossible, which isn't necessarily the case. For all we know, in our particular universe and under our particular set of natural laws, that's the case, but who can say what might be true in the wider multiverse? We simply don't know. Kalam is simply taking an unproven assertion, then arbitrarily inventing a solution to a problem that might not even exist. So what does Kalam actually prove? Nothing at all.
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Post #79

Post by Cephus »

[Replying to post 57 by alexxcJRO]

But it shows nothing of the sort. It shows that people can hand-wave and come up with unsupported assertions, based on what may be an incomplete or even wholly wrong understanding of the universe because some people have an emotional attachment to an idea that simply has no evidence whatsoever to support it.
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Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #80

Post by For_The_Kingdom »

alexxcJRO wrote: Q: How do you get from Leibniz argument being sound to theism( Belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe) having more explanatory power then atheism?[/b]
Well, you know, based on things like..

1. The origin of the universe
2. The origin of life
3. The origin of consciousness
4. The origin of language

You know, things like that. My point was, theism has more explanatory power to explain the ORIGIN of things like those.
alexxcJRO wrote: Q: So you do not agree with being one personal creator who intervenes in the creation(your God) as a cause for our universe?(Yes/No question)


I do agree, but that is not based solely on one argument...I have other arguments that supports monotheism, particularly, CHRISTIAN theism...but no cosmological argument will get you to STRICKLY monotheism on its own...but it will damn sure get you to theism, in general.

alexxcJRO wrote:
Q: Are you a Christian ?(Yes/No question)


YES

alexxcJRO wrote:
Yet there could be that more then one personal creator are responsible for the creation.
The option remains and it could be true regardless of your subjective opinion.


But that is irrelevant to the argument. If you are a homicide detective, and you are called to the scene of a homicide, when you arrive at the scene...based on what you OBSERVE and all of the evidence at the scene, you may be IMMEDIATELY able to rule out "death by natural causes".

At that point, who did it or how many people were involved in the homicide is irrelevant...the first thing is to determine whether it was a homicide or not and if it was, you know there is at LEAST ONE SUSPECT in the crime.

Now, as your investigation goes further, you may even determine that there were multiple suspects involve instead of just one...but that would still led you further and further away from "death by natural causes", wouldn't it?

alexxcJRO wrote:
I don’t care about infinite regress because I am only talking about what created our universe.


Right, and if what created our universe is what I believe YOU think it is, then maybe you should care about infinite regress.

Or you could simply keep believing in logical absurdities. Whatever rattles your chain.

alexxcJRO wrote:
How the multi-verse came to be is other thing. The multiverse may be uncaused like your god.


The multiverse can't be uncaused...see, right back to infinite regression.

alexxcJRO wrote:
Our universe may been created because of natural processes inside a multiverse.


The problem of infinite regression.

alexxcJRO wrote:
So saying only god can be an explanation is an argument from ignorance and God of the Gaps.


Unlike natural explanations, the God Hypothesis (at least Christian theism) does not defy logic and reasoning.

alexxcJRO wrote:
I accept both God or multiverse hypothesis. But I am not convinced by neither.


At least you are open-minded, which goes a long way around here.

alexxcJRO wrote:
It may be that there are no gods.


Logically impossible.

alexxcJRO wrote:
It may be there is a single creator or multiple creators.


Logically necessary.

alexxcJRO wrote:
It may be that a billion old alien race from one of the universes inside the multiverse created our universe in a successful experiment.


Logically impossible.

alexxcJRO wrote:
It may be deism is true or theism or pantheism and so one.


Logically necessary.

alexxcJRO wrote:
Blah, Blah and so one ad infinitum. Explanations could be endless.


Logicaly impossible.

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