Was Jesus and Paul wrong about the Second Coming?

[polonius]

Matt 24:34 Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

Matt 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matt 26:64 Jesus said to him in reply, “You have said so.[a] But I tell you: From now on you will see ‘the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power’ and ‘coming on the clouds of heaven.’�

1Thes 4:15-17 Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 18 by Elijah John]

You stated a conclusion that the doctine is {quote} "flimsy" unless that was based on nothing (ie no knowledge whatsoever), it is a legitimate request to ask upon what did you base your conclusion. I will apologise however for asking how many hours you have spent leading to that conclusion, since that is irrelevant and bad show on my part. So I'm sorry for that.

Still, correct me if I am wrong but debate involves defending ones conclusion, since you publically made one, there is nothing "dishonerable" about requesting what lead you to it.


JW

RESPONSE:

Which of these statements do you want us to believe?

"...Bible evidence shows that in the year 1914 C.E. God's time arrived for Christ to return and begin ruling...Christ's return invisible...Christ himself gave a visible 'sign' by which we may know that he is invisibly present...'NATION WILL RISE AGAINST NATION'...Surely you have seen this part of the 'sign' being fulfilled since 1914! In that year World War I began" (You Can Live Forever In Paradise on Earth )

OR

Revelation 1:7

However, an invisible return is contradicted by Revelation 1:7 thus:
Look! He is coming with the clouds; every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and on his account all the tribes of the earth will wail. So it is to be. Amen. (NRSV)

And please answer the question rather than merely citing something else you have written.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 21 by polonius.advice]

Are you suggesting that Jehovah's Witnesses believe Revelation 1:7 was fulfilled in 1914? If so you are mistaken. 1914 refers to Christ's presence (parousia) not to the second coming (erkhomai) - which is a yet future event.

JW

[polonius]

[Replying to post 21 by polonius.advice]

Are you suggesting that Jehovah's Witnesses believe Revelation 1:7 was fulfilled in 1914? If so you are mistaken. 1914 refers to Christ's presence (parousia) not to the second coming (erkhomai) - which is a yet future event.

JW

RESPOSE:

No. I am saying that JW claim, the second such claim, that the Second Coming occurred in 1914 is again in error.

[polonius]

"The Watchtower has consistently presented evidence to honest hearted students of Bible prophecy that Jesus’ presence in heavenly Kingdom power began in 1914." Watchtower1993 Jan 15 p.5

Then where was Jesus before 1914?

[polonius]

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... t-is-hell/

“Some Bible translations use the word “hell� for the Hebrew word “Sheol� and the matching Greek word “Hades,� both of which refer to the common grave of mankind. (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:27) Many people believe in a fiery hell, as shown in the religious artwork accompanying this article. However, the Bible teaches otherwise.�

Psalm 16:10
For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol,
nor let your devout one see the pit.[a]

Acts 2:27
...because you will not abandon my soul to the netherworld,
nor will you suffer your holy one to see corruption.

Yet, the Book of Revelation says:

Revelation 14:11 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
11 The smoke of the fire that torments them will rise forever and ever, and there will be no relief day or night for those who worship the beast or its image or accept the mark of its name.�

Question: Are you really claiming that Book of Revelation "teaches otherwise"?

Should the Book of Revelation be acknowledged as uninspired?

[JehovahsWitness]

No. I am saying that JW claim, the second such claim, that the Second Coming occurred in 1914 is again in error.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not claim, that the second coming occurred in 1914 we claim that the parousia (Christ's presence) began in that year.

"The Watchtower has consistently presented evidence to honest hearted students of Bible prophecy that Jesus’ presence in heavenly Kingdom power began in 1914." Watchtower1993 Jan 15 p.5

Then where was Jesus before 1914?

The "second coming" (erkhomai) is yet a future event.

Then where was Jesus before 1914?

Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus has always been a spirit in heaven with his father Jehovah except for a period of 33 years when he was a human on earth.

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Still, the claim that Jesus returned in 1914 is the extraordinary one, the one that requires extraordinary evidence.

What extraordinary evidence would you expect to see of an invisible event that happened in heaven? Plenty of things are reported to have happened in heaven which have gone totally unseen by every human on earth, why would you expect to see spiritual events in the invisible heavens?

OK, let me rephrase for a minute, I am not making an absolute claim that Christ did not return, but I have not encountered any evidence that he has.

Then may I suggest that you read Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 all of which indicate that we are indeed living during the time of Jesus parousia (return).

Regards,
JW

[Elijah John]

Still, the claim that Jesus returned in 1914 is the extraordinary one, the one that requires extraordinary evidence.

What extraordinary evidence would you expect to see of an invisible event that happened in heaven? Plenty of things are reported to have happened in heaven which have gone totally unseen by every human on earth, why would you expect to see spiritual events in the invisible heavens

SOMETHING...riight now we only have hearsay evidence from JW's that defies Reason. The claim that Jesus has been on the throne since 1914 is as unsubstantiated as the Mormon claim that Jesus visited the Americas.

OK, let me rephrase for a minute, I am not making an absolute claim that Christ did not return, but I have not encountered any evidence that he has.

Then may I suggest that you read Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 all of which indicate that we are indeed living during the time of Jesus parousia (return).

Regards,
JW

Before I read those chapters, tell me exactly which verses in each "indicate that we are indeed living during the time of Jesus parousia".

[JehovahsWitness]

What extraordinary evidence would you expect to see of an invisible event that happened in heaven?

SOMETHING...

Firstly, my understanding is that Mormons claim Jesus physically descended from heaven and went to America. Jehovah's Witnesses are simply saying something significant happened in heaven, unseen by humans; they do NOT say Jesus came or visited the earth, he remains in heaven as a spirit during his presence, never changing location at all.

But you are right, since the events were invisible Jesus' disciples asked for SOMETHING... a sign, "something" that humans would be able to observe on the earth that would indicate that invisible event had happened in the spirit realm. They asked "what will be a sign of your "parousia"?" (obviously they wouldn't need a "sign" or his presence if "every eye could see him").

Before I read those chapters, tell me exactly which verses in each "indicate that we are indeed living during the time of Jesus parousia".

Matthew 24 verses 3 to 14
Luke chapter 21 verse 11
and Mark 13 verses 4 through 8

Further reading
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... last-days/

[Monta]

[Replying to polonius.advice]

Revelation 1:7

However, an invisible return is contradicted by Revelation 1:7 thus:
Look! He is coming with the clouds; every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and on his account all the tribes of the earth will wail. So it is to be. Amen. (NRSV)

Just as those who saw Him but did not see Him for who He is
2000 ys ago,
so today He comes to those who have eyes to see Him the second time.