Evangelicals vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

[Elijah John]

Evangelicals often call Jehovah's Witnesses, a "cult" and not Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses, seem to consider Roman Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox etc, "not-Christian" (JWs please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Question for debate, why can't all of these groups rightly be considered "Christian"?

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

[onewithhim]

Fellowchristian wrote:

The point you raised, I shall answer later.
I am asking how the Lord mentioned in Roman 14:8 and 14:9 cannot be the same person.
If JW believes Lord in 14:8 is Jehovah, why he/they not accepting Lord mentioned in vs 9 also Jehovah.
Hope my question is clear.

The word in 14:9 is not kurios ('Lord') but κυ�ιε�σῃ.

κυ�ιε�σῃ Definition:
to be lord over, to be possessed of, mastery over.


Substituting "Jehovah" here does not fit. "that he might be Jehovah over the dead and the living." "Lord over" makes much more sense.

I am not arguing for the gramatical connotation, but if the person mentioned in vs 8 and vs 9 are not the same.

Didn't I answer that in post #283?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 286 by marakorpa]

I am assuming that you agree with the member calling themselves "JehovahsWitness." What you said sounds like you do.

[marakorpa]

[Replying to hoghead1]

That is your privilege, Jehovah gave mankind the right of choice, and Adam and Eve made the wrong choice as the majority of mankind do also.

You opinion would matter little to the JW Organization, Sorry!

[marakorpa]

I would put this to those of you that think that man will survive on this earth as declines.

Medicine and its practices has made inroads into health and keeping a few old folk on the earth for a bit longer, but it has not solved the overall medical and general health problems of the masses.

Do you notice that each time the medical researchers announce some "find" that will help fix, say, cancer or AIDS (Which is still pandemic) or some other worrisome disease, that there is the other bit at the bottom of the announcement "It will be available to the world in 20 years time"

Medicine is not keeping up with the pandemics that are continually attacking mankind. The flu virus is awaiting a change into another virulent strain that will kill millions as has happened in the past, and we can only blame ourselves with our consumption of anti-biotics for anything that moves.

Have you noticed that there are more earthquakes that ever before recorded, the Tornado Belt in the US has been substantially widened, Tsunami warning stations are all over the planet, and then people are still killed by these events.

The earthquake event near Christchurch in New Zealand is terrorizing the population there, daily, 1000 aftershocks have been recorded. Yes, New Zealand is called the 'Shaky Isle" but it was never this shaky. The personal torment to these people is causing many to become mentally disturbed and in a state of shock that can not be appeased.

Have you noticed the civil unrest throughout the world, the anarchy of mobs and demonstrators that smash their way into shops a steal products, using the riot as a reason for the crime.

Tsunami, how long ago did you hear this word? In the last 20 years maybe. Now there are world wide warning stations in place, but they do not save all people from being saved, people are people and will stand and watch the massive volcanic eruptions threatening their life, just as the ones stood to watch the twin towers collapse and paid the price for their curiosity.

If God does not soon intervene in the world's downward spiral, we will all destroy ourselves, but of course there is the Biblical hope of survival, and it will come from God, as promised.

Try this from a secular source. I do not promise that it is accurate, but you can follow it up by research.

https://www.scoopwhoop.com/inothernews/e

I hope we are allowed to give Internet information with links to sites.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 291 by marakorpa]

Yes, you are right on that one. And let me add to my previous criticism, that, based on the long, proven track record of the Watchtower Society in generating anti-Semitic, Jew-bating propaganda, plus its "Declaration of Facts" (1933), in which it pledged its support to Hitler, I would rank it as a vicious racist organization right up there with the KKK.

[tigger2]

[Replying to post 291 by marakorpa]

Yes, you are right on that one. And let me add to my previous criticism, that, based on the long, proven track record of the Watchtower Society in generating anti-Semitic, Jew-bating propaganda, plus its "Declaration of Facts" (1933), in which it pledged its support to Hitler, I would rank it as a vicious racist organization right up there with the KKK.

In my 45 years associated with JWs I have NEVER heard a JW speak or act in an anti-Semitic manner (quite the opposite actually). I haven't seen it in their iterature nor in their public talks. Maybe they are being confused with the Catholic Church which has a very long history of anti-Semitic physical persecution.

Or maybe JWs are being confused with the teachings of Martin Luther who inspired Germany's Jewish Holocaust.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/js ... ovah.html :

"Jehovah's Witnesses, in Germany as in the United States, had refused to fight in World War I. This stance contributed to hostility against them in a Germany still wounded by defeat in that war and fervently nationalistic, attempting to reclaim its previous world stature. In Nazi Germany, Jehovah's Witnesses refused to raise their arms in the "Heil, Hitler!" salute; they did not vote in elections; they would not join the army or the German Labor Front (a Nazi affiliate, which all salaried employees were required to join after 1934).

"Jehovah's Witnesses were denounced for their international and American ties, the apparent revolutionary tone of their millennialism (belief in the peaceful 1,000 year heavenly rule over the earth by Christ, preceded by the battle of Armageddon), and their supposed connections to Judaism, including a reliance on parts of the Bible embodying Jewish scripture (the Christian "Old Testament"). Many of these charges were brought against more than 40 other banned religious groups, but none of these were persecuted to the same degree. The crucial difference was, the intensity Witnesses demonstrated in refusing to give ultimate loyalty or obedience to the state.

"In April 1933, four months after Hitler became chancellor, Jehovah's Witnesses were banned in Bavaria and by the summer in most of Germany. Twice during 1933, police occupied the Witnesses' offices and their printing site in Magdeburg and confiscated religious literature. Witnesses defied Nazi prohibitions by continuing to meet and distribute their literature, often covertly. Copies were made from booklets smuggled in mainly from Switzerland.

"Initially, Jehovah's Witnesses attempted to fend off Nazi attacks by issuing a letter to the government in October 1934, explaining their religious beliefs and political neutrality. This declaration failed to convince the Nazi regime of the group's harmlessness. For defying the ban on their activities, many Witnesses were arrested and sent to prisons and concentration camps. They lost their jobs as civil servants or employees in private industry and their unemployment, social welfare, and pension benefits.

"From 1935 onward, Jehovah's Witnesses faced a Nazi campaign of nearly total persecution. On April 1, 1935, the group was banned nationally by law. The same year, Germany reintroduced compulsory military service. For refusing to be drafted or perform war–related work, and for continuing to meet, Jehovah's Witnesses were arrested and incarcerated in prisons and concentration camps. In 1936 some 400 Jehovah's Witnesses were imprisoned at Sachsenhausen concentration camp.

"In 1936 a special unit of the Gestapo (Secret State Police) began compiling a registry of all persons believed to be Jehovah's Witnesses, and agents infiltrated Bible study meetings. By 1939, an estimated 6,000 Witnesses (including those from incorporated Austria and Czechoslovakia) were detained in prisons or camps. Some Witnesses were tortured by police in attempts to make them sign a declaration renouncing their faith, but few capitulated.

"In response to Nazi efforts to destroy them, the worldwide Jehovah's Witness organization became a center of spiritual resistance against the Nazis. An international convention of Witnesses, held in Lucerne, Switzerland, in September 1936, issued a resolution condemning the entire Nazi regime. In this text and other literature brought into Germany, writers broadly indicted the Third Reich. Articles strongly denounced the persecution of German Jews, Nazi "savagery" toward Communists, the remilitarization of Germany, the Nazification of schools and universities, Nazi propaganda, and the regime's assault on mainstream churches.

"The children of Jehovah's Witnesses also suffered. In classrooms, teachers ridiculed children who refused to give the "Heil, Hitler!" salute or sing patriotic songs. Classmates shunned and beat up young Witnesses. Principals expelled them from schools. Families were broken up as authorities took children away from their parents and sent them to reform schools, orphanages, or private homes, to be brought up as Nazis.

"After 1939 most active Jehovah's Witnesses were incarcerated in prisons or concentration camps. Some had fled Germany. In the camps, all prisoners wore markings of various shapes and colors so that guards and camp officers could identify them by category. Witnesses were marked by purple triangular patches. Even in the camps, they continued to meet, pray, and make converts. In Buchenwald concentration camp, they set up an underground printing press and distributed religious tracts.

"Conditions in Nazi camps were generally harsh for all inmates, many of whom died from hunger, disease, exhaustion, exposure to the cold, and brutal treatment. But, as psychoanalyst Bruno Bettelheim and others have noted, Witnesses were uniquely sustained in the camps by the support they gave each other and by their belief that their suffering was part of their work for God. Individual Witnesses astounded their guards with their refusal to conform to military-type routines like roll call or to roll bandages for soldiers at the front. At the same time, Witnesses were considered unusually trustworthy because they refused to escape from camps or physically resist their guards. For this reason, Witnesses were often used as domestic servants by Nazi camp officers and guards."

Of course there are many who hate JWs. And some of them even distort and lie about JW beliefs.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 291 by marakorpa]

marakorpa, hogshead seems to think you decry the Watchtower Society, but most of the things you say go along with what they teach. What is your stand on that?

(And that website you linked is weird.)

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 294 by tigger2]

That being the case, you re in for a real eye-opener. Rutherford, who was president of the Society for about 25 years, was a notorious anti-Semite. Speaking at a meeting for Bible students in 1922, he described teh Jew as the hook-nosed, stoop-shouldered little individual who stands on the street corner trying to gyp you out of every nickel you have." In 1985, a Society publication titled "You Can Live in Paradise on Earth Forever" asks, "Was God really their (the Jews'_ father?" It answers, "Not at all. Jews are from their father the Devil."

You did not provide a full account of the Society in Nazi Germany. Yes, the Society was persecuted, but that was purely because of its pacifism. Initially, it tried to get in bed with Hitler, embraced his same brand of vicious anti-Semitism. That is well illustrated by the "Declaration of Facts" (1933) and its letter to Hitler. Since this is apparently new material to you, I have included of these documents, below, for you to examine and see for yourself.





DOCUMENT B
Declaration of Facts
"This company of German people, who are peaceable and law-abiding citizens representing many others from every part of Germany, all of whom are earnestly laboring for the highest welfare of the people of this land, being now duly assembled at Berlin this 25th day of June, A.D. 1933, do joyfully declare our complete devotion to Jehovah, the Almighty God, and to his kingdom under Christ Jesus, whose shed blood bought the human race. We declare that the holy Scriptures set forth in the Bible constitute the Word of Jehovah God given to men for their guidance in righteousness, and that the Word of God is the truth, and that it is of greatest importance that man have a knowledge of his relationship to God. We ask to be judged by the standard of the Word of God.

"Christ Jesus is Jehovah God's great Witness to the truth, and as his faithful and devoted followers we are, by His grace, witnesses to the truth. The purpose of this Declaration is that we may present a true and faithful witness before rulers and the people as to the name and purpose of Jehovah God and our relation thereto.

"We are wrongfully charged before the ruling powers of this government and before the people of this nation; and in order that the name of Jehovah God may be exalted in the minds of the people, and that his benevolent purposes be better understood and our position fairly placed before the government, we do respectfully ask the rulers of the nation and the people to give a fair and impartial consideration to the statement of facts here made.

"The Scriptures plainly state that the chief opposer of Jehovah God and the greatest enemy of mankind is Satan the Devil, whose name is also that of Serpent and Dragon. It is written in the Scriptures that Satan, who has long been the invisible ruler of this world, deceives and blinds the people to the truth in order that the light of and concerning Jehovah God and Christ Jesus may not shine into the minds of men. (2 Corinthians 4: 3,4) Frequently by fraud, subtility [sic] and deception Satan has induced honest persons to war with each other, in order that he might turn them all away from God and destroy them. Above all things, the people need to know Jehovah God and his gracious provision for their general welfare.
Jews
"By the term `clergy', as used in our literature, reference is made to the class of professed religious teachers, priests and Jesuits who employ improper political means to accomplish their ends and join forces even with those who deny God and the Lord Jesus Christ. That is the same class to whom Jesus referred as his persecutors. We have no criticism of any honest religious teacher.

"When Jesus went to the Jews to tell them of the truth, it was the Jewish clergy, that is to say, the Pharisees and priests, that violently opposed him and persecuted him and caused him to be charged with all manner of crimes and offenses. They refused to hear the truth, and addressing them Jesus said: "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.' (John 8: 43-45) Although the Pharisees and priests then claimed to represent Jehovah God Jesus told them that they were in fact the representatives of Satan the Devil.

"We have no fight with any persons or religious teachers, but we must call attention to the fact that it is generally those who claim to represent God and Christ Jesus who are in fact our persecutors and who misrepresent us before the governments and nations. As true followers of Christ Jesus we are to expect such opposition, and we mention it here in explanation of why we have been misrepresented before the rulers of this nation. To his faithful followers Jesus said: `Remember the word I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they [the false religious teachers] have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.' (John 15: 20) Furthermore, Jesus said that this same class of men would cause his true followers to be wrongfully charged before the ruling powers, his language being: `But take heed to yourselves: for they [false religious teachers] shall deliver you up to councils [police power]; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten; and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.' (Mark 13: 9) This explains why Jehovah God now permits his faithful witnesses to be misrepresented and persecuted, namely, that those of a wrong spirit may identify themselves as opponents of God and thus bear witness against themselves. The same materialistic spirit that caused the persecution of Jesus Christ now exists and is back of the persecution of us his faithful followers.

"It is falsely charged by our enemies that we have received financial support for our work from the Jews. Nothing is farther from the truth. Up to this hour there never has been the slightest bit of money contributed to our work by Jews. We are the faithful followers of Christ Jesus and believe upon Him as the Savior of the world, whereas the Jews entirely reject Jesus Christ and emphatically deny that he is the Savior of the world sent of God for man's good. This of itself should be sufficient proof to show that we receive no support from Jews and that therefore the charges against us are maliciously false and could proceed only from Satan, our great enemy.

"The greatest and most oppressive empire on earth is the Anglo-American empire. By that is meant the British Empire, of which the United States of America forms a part. It has been the commercial Jews of the British-American empire that have built up and carried on Big Business as a means of exploiting and oppressing the peoples of many nations. This fact particularly applies to the cities of London and New York, the stronghold of Big Business. This fact is so manifest in America that there is a proverb concerning the city of New York which says: `The Jews own it, the Irish Catholics rule it, and the Americans pay the bills.' We have no fight with any of these persons mentioned, but, as the witnesses for Jehovah and in obedience to his commandment set forth in the Scriptures, we are compelled to call attention to the truth concerning the same in order that the people may be enlightened concerning God and his purpose.
Our Literature
"It is said that our books and like literature, when circulated amongst the people, constitute a danger to the peace and safety of the nation. We are certain that his conclusion is due to the fact that our books and other literature have not been carefully examined by the rulers and hence are not properly understood. We respectfully call attention to the fact that these books and other literature were written originally in America and the language therein used has been adapted to the American style of plainness of speech and, when translated into German, the same appears to be harsh. We admit that the same truths might be stated in a less blunt and more pleasing phrase, and yet the language of these books follows closely the language of the Bible.

"It should be borne in mind that in the British Empire and in America the common people have suffered and are now suffering greatly because of the misrule of Big Business and conscienceless politicians, which misrule has been and is supported by political religionists, and hence the writers of our books or literature have endeavored to employ plain language to convey to the people the proper thought or understanding. The language used, however, is not as strong or emphatic as that used by Jesus Christ in denouncing the oppressors and false teachers of his time.

"The present government of Germany has declared emphatically against Big Business oppressors and in opposition to the wrongful religious influence in the political affairs of the nation. Such is exactly our position; and we further state in our literature the reason for the existence of oppressive Big Business and the wrongful political religious influence, because the Holy Scriptures plainly declare that these oppressive instruments proceed from the Devil, and that the complete relief therefrom is God's kingdom under Christ. It is therefore impossible for our literature or our work to in any wise be a danger or a menace to the peace and safety of the state.

"Our organization is not political in any sense. We only insist on teaching the Word of Jehovah God to the people, and that without hindrance. We do not object or try to hinder anyone's teaching or believing what he desires, but we only ask the freedom to believe and teach what we conceive the bible to teach, and then let the people decide which they wish to believe.

"To know Jehovah God and his gracious provision for mankind is of most vital importance to all persons, because God has declared in His Word that where there is no vision or understanding of his Word the people perish. (Proverbs 29: 18) We have devoted our lives and our material substance to the work of enabling the people to gain a vision or understanding of God's Word, and therefore it is impossible for our literature and our work to be a menace to the peace and safety of the nation. Instead of being against the principles advocated by the government of Germany, we stand squarely for such principles, and point out that Jehovah God through Christ Jesus will bring about the full realization of these principles and will give to the people peace and prosperity and the greatest desire of every honest heart.

"Our organization seeks neither money nor members, but we are a company or organized body of Christian people engaged solely in the benevolent work of teaching the Word of God to the people at the least possible cost to them. Our organization was originally incorporated in the United States of America in 1884 under the name of the WATCH TOWER BIBLE & TRACT SOCIETY, and in 1914 incorporated under the laws of Great Britain by the name of the INTERNATIONAL BIBLE STUDENTS ASSOCIATION. These are merely the corporate names of our organization for legally carrying forward its work. The Scriptural name by which we are known is `Jehovah's witnesses'. We are engaged solely in a benevolent work. The purpose of our organization is to aid the people to understand the Bible, which discloses the only possible way for the complete relief and blessing for mankind. Our organization has extended its work throughout the earth. The education, culture and upbuilding of the people must and will come through the agency of God's kingdom concerning which we teach as set forth in the Bible. The salvation of the people depends upon the true knowledge of and obedience to Jehovah God and his righteous ways.

"The people are in great distress and in need of help to understand the reason for their unhappy condition and what is the means of relief. The Scriptures, when understood, make this matter clear. Instead of collecting money from the people and using the same to erect great buildings and to support men in luxury, we print the gospel message of God's kingdom and carry it to the homes of the people that they may, at the least inconvenience to themselves, gain a knowledge of God's purposes concerning them.

"A careful examination of our books and literature will disclose the fact that the very high ideals held and promulgated by the present national government are set forth in and endorsed and strongly emphasized in our publications, and show that Jehovah God will see to it that these high ideals in due time will be attained by all persons who love righteousness and who obey the Most High. Instead, therefore, of our literature and our work's being a menace to the principles of the present government we are the strongest supporters of such high ideals. For this reason Satan, the enemy of all men who desire righteousness, has sought to misrepresent our work and prevent us from carrying it on in this land.

"For many years our organization has put forth an unselfish and persistent effort to do good to the people. Our American brethren have greatly assisted in the work in Germany, and with money freely contributed, and that at a time when all Germany was in dire distress. Now because it appears that Germany may soon be free from oppression and that the people may be lifted up, Satan, the great enemy, puts forth his endeavors to destroy that benevolent work in this land.

The letter Jehovah's Witnesses sent to Hitler:

Translation of a letter of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, German Branch, Wachtturmstraasse 1-19, Magdeburg/Germany:
Dear Reichskanzler,
on June 25, 1933, at the Sporthalle Wilmersdorf in Berlin there was a conference of appx. 5,000 Bible Researchers (Jehovah's Witnesses), representing several millions of Germans who are friends and followers of this movements for many years. Purpose of this conference, which was attended by representatives of all bible students communities of Germany, was to find ways and means to inform the Reichskanzler, as well as other high officials of the German Reich and the governments of its individual countries of the following:
In several parts of the country, actions were taken against a corporation of serious Christian men and women who are standing on the foundation of positive Christianity. Such actions can only described as the persecution of Christians by other Christians, since the accusations - which have led to these actions against us - primarily are of clerical, especially catholic origin and untrue.
We are absolutely convinced of the impartiality of the government officials dealing with this situation. Yet we conclude that the contents of our literature and the purpose of our movement are largely misinterpreted due to the accusations which are brought up against us by our religious opposers and which might result in a prejudiced viewpoint. This might also be due to the amount of our literature and the high demand put upon the respective officials.
For this reason the things discussed at the conference were put down as a declaration of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, in order to pro vide you, Mr. Reichskanzler, as well as the high officials of the German Reich and its countries, with a document e witnesses of the Name of Jehovah, the most high, the father of our Lord and redeemer Jesus Christ.
We are convinced that you, Mr. Reichskanzler, will not have such activities disturbed. The communities of the Bible Researchers of Germany and their members are generally known as defenders of respect of the Most High and zealous students of the bible. Local police officials will need to testify to the fact that Bible Researchers have to be counted among elements of the country and is people who are known for their love and support of order. There sole mission is to draw the hearts of humans to God.
The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (located in Magdeburg/Germany) is the organizing center of the mission of the Bible Researchers.
The Brooklyn headquarter of the Watchtower Society is pro German in an exemplary way and has been so for many years. For that reason, in 1918, the president of the Society and seven members of the board of directors were sentenced to 80 years in prison, because the president refused to use two of the magazines published in America under his direction for war propaganda against Germany. These two magazines, "The Watchtower" and "Bible Student" were the only magazines in America which refused to engage in anti-German propaganda and for that reason were prohibited and suppressed in America during the war.
In the very same manner, in course of the recent months the board of directors of our Society not only refused to engage in propaganda against Germany, but has even taken a position against it. The enclosed declaration underlines this fact and emphasizes that the people leading in such propaganda (Jewish businessmen and catholics) also are the most rigorous persecutors of the work of our Society and iitboard of directors. This and other statements of the declaration are meant to re pudiate the slanderous accusation, that Bible Researchers are supported by the Jews.
The conference of five thousand delegates received the statement of the governor in Magdeburg with great satisfaction, who declared that it can not be proven that there is any relationship between the Bible Researchers and Communists or Marxists, as it was stated by our religious opposers (which means that such a statement is also nothing but slander). A press report in the Magdeburger Tageszeitung, issue 104, dated May 5, 1933, reads as follows:
A declaration of the government concerning the occupation of the Bible Researcher building: The press department of the government issued the following information: "Occupation of the property of the Society of Serious Bible Researchers" in Magdeburg was lifted on April 29, since no material to support the claim of communist activities could be found."
Another report in the Magdeburger Tageszeitung, issue 102, dated May 3, 199, reads:
The office of the Bible Researchers Society informed us that the actions taken against the Watchtower Society and the Bible Researchers Society, were abolished. All property was returned, since a comprehensive search led to the result that nothing can be held against this Society neither as far as political nor as criminal activities are concerned. It was also concluded that both Societies are of an absolutely un-political and strictly religious nature. On request, the government confirmed the correctness of these statements.
The conference of five thousand delegates emphasized that according to this state of affairs it considered it beneath its dignity to even defend itself against any disparaging accusations of Marxist or even Communist activities. Such disproved slander of our religious opposers undoubtedly carry the sign of religious competition. Their goal is to stifle an honest warner with the ugly means of slander instead of using the word of God.
The conference of five thousand delegates also noted - as is expressed in the declaration - that the Bible Researchers of Germany are fighting for the very same high ethical goals and ideals which also the national government of the German Reich proclaimed respecting the relationship of humans to God, namely: honesty of the created being towards its creator.
The conference came to the conclusion that there are no contradictions when it comes to the relationship between the Bible Researchers of Germany to the national government of the German Reich. To the contrary, referring to the purely religious and unpolitical goals and efforts of the Bible Researchers, it can be said that these are in full agreement with the identical goals of the national government of the German Reich.
Based upon the supposedly strong language of our literature, some of our books were banned. The conference of the five thousand delegates pointed to the fact that the contents of the books which were criticized, only refers to the situation and actions within the Anglo-American world power - especially England - which is responsible for the League of Nations and its contracts and burdens imposed upon Germany. What is written in our literature - no matter whether from a financial or political point of view - is only directed towards the suppressors of the German people and their country, but by no means refers to Germany itself, which is trying hard to fight against the imposed burdens. Therefore the ban imposed upon these books is completely unjustified.
In some parts of the country Bible Researchers are even prohibited to meet for prayer and church service and for many weeks are hoping for a solution of this situation which is stifling their religious lives. The following was expressed about this situation:
We want to continue to live up to the prohibition imposed upon us, for we are confident that Mr. Reichskanzler and the high government officials will lift this ban - which forces tens of thousands of Christian men and women to a martyrdom which can only be compared to that of the first Christians - after they have gained an understanding of the real situation.
Finally, the conference of the five thousand delegates expressed that both Bible Researchers and Watchtower Organization stand for keeping up order and security within the state, as well as furthering the primary high ideals of the national government in the field of religion. The afore mentioned, as well as the enclosed declaration are meant as a brief information directed to both Mr. Reichskanzler as leader of the people and all the other high government officials of the German Reich.
The enclosed declaration was read by the secretary to the five thousand delegates of the conference of the Bible Researchers. It was approved unanimously and it was decided to present one copy each together with this report of the conference to Mr. Reichskanzler and all the other high government officials of the Reich and its countries.
This we want to do herewith and ask that the following request, which is also stated in the declaration, will be received with favour:
Namely that a commission from our midst is given the chance to person ally explain the true situation either to Mr. Reichskanzler himself or to the minister of internal affairs. Alternatively, we ask Mr. Reichskanzler to appoint a commission of men who do not have any religious prejudice against us - men who do not have professional religious interests but are solely interested to comply to the just principles as they were set up by the Reichskanzler himself - to investigate our situation impartially. The principles mentioned, refer to paragraph 24 of the program of the National Socialistic German Party of Workers, which reads:
"We demand the freedom of all religious denominations within the state, as far as they do not endanger the state itself or violate the moral values of the German race.
The party as such represents the viewpoint of positive Christianity without being attached to any particular denomination. It fights against the Jewish-materialistic spirit inside and outside of us and is convinced that any recovery of the German people can only take place from the inside out."
We are fully convinced that, once we have been judged impartially, based firstly upon God's word and secondly upon the above mentioned paragraphs, the national government of Germany will find no reason to prevent us from our church services and missionary activities.
We are looking forward to your kind approval, which we hope to receive soon, and want to assure our highest respect to you, honorable Mr. Reichskanzler.
Yours faithfully
Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society Magdeburg

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 296 by hoghead1]

May I suggest that you emphasize certain parts of a document, to bring out your point? It is exceedingly difficult to pore through your documents verbatim when you don't highlight any parts.

What you present is nothing new to me. I have read everything there is concerning the issue you have brought up. A person has to be pretty low to hang their hat on letters written in the early 1930s. Anyway, Brother Rutherford did make reference to the Jews in a derogatory manner, though I never saw where he called them "hook-nosed" and other unfortunate adjectives. I knew that years ago. All I can say is that Bro. Rutherford must have rued the day he wrote anything derogatory to Germany about the Jews. That is the only thing I have ever read that I would disagree with Bro. Rutherford on. He had a very strong (and some would say abrasive) personality, and maybe he got caught up in the moment, letting some possible past prejudice get the best of him. I would be willing to guarantee you that he regretted saying anything like that. No one today in Jehovah's organization feels that way, and we have thousands of Jews in our ranks.

Tigger has shown you how the Watchtower came out in opposition to the Nazis. That is what was finally most important....not some ill-advised comments by Bro. Rutherford in 1933.


(Also, you mislead people with your seeming quote about God not being the God of the Jews. Jesus did not say that, and neither did the WT Society use that quote against the Jews as a whole, in the Paradise on Earth book or anywhere else. Jesus aimed it at the religious leaders, who were not living up to their responsibilities as spiritual shepherds. Jesus exposed them real well in Matthew chapter 23. It was not meant as a castigation of the entire Jewish race.)

[marakorpa]

[Replying to post 293 by hoghead1]

I have to say that that comment is vicious and unfounded. Please check you facts before trying to spread lies about the JWs, or any other organization, for that matter.