Evangelicals vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

[Elijah John]

Evangelicals often call Jehovah's Witnesses, a "cult" and not Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses, seem to consider Roman Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox etc, "not-Christian" (JWs please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Question for debate, why can't all of these groups rightly be considered "Christian"?

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

[For_The_Kingdom]

The Catholics reckon you have to be a catholic before you can go to heaven.....Seems to be no problem

All other religions reckon that they are the only ones tha tare really Christians....Seems to be no problem.

Buddhists, Muslims, Shinto,all the ones under Indrea all say they are the only ones that offer salvation...Seems to be no problems.

Ok, let me just EXPLICITLY state, for the record: ANYONE WHO CLAIMS THAT THEIR CULT, RELIGION, OR DENOMINATION is the ONLY way to heaven, they are wrong. Jesus is the ONLY WAY TO HEAVEN.

That better?

The JWs do not say that you must give abeyance to the organization

You guys are playing word games. Of course, they know that people have free will and no one is forcing anyone to do anything....but that AIN'T THE POINT. The point is, for salvation, is one required to become a Jehovah's Witness in order for salvation.

You know how, in the Watch Tower mags, you have those illustrations of all those people enjoying eternal bliss on "paradise earth"? Well, is there anyone in those illustrations that are enjoying this bliss, WITHOUT being or having been a Jehovah's Witness?

That is the question.

and they accept Jesus more so than most religions that make him a part of an impossible trinity. The Jehovah Witnesses are just that, they give witness to Jehovah's purpose and pray to him through his only begotten son Jesus Christ...Your scripture covers this.

Pray to Jehovah through Jesus? Why? Stephen prayed directly to Jesus (Acts 7:59). But I don't expect your NWT to render it that way...but if you look at every other Biblical translation BESIDES the NWT, that is how it is rendered.

SMH.

[marakorpa]

[Replying to For_The_Kingdom]

The simple answer to your question would be simpler if you removed you head from the title Jehovah Witnesses and replaced it with the faithful God serving people of the world.

Jehovah created man, and he loved what he created, putting them in a paradise garden with the promise that they would live forever in the earth under such conditions.

Okay, I am presuming you know what happened next, however Jehovah still loved his creation and made it possible for his concept of a paradise earth filled with faithful humans to still occur. God has purposed it and it will happen said Isaiah.

So, the paradise earth is the "salvation" you talk about, I think, as you have not told us what your idea of salvation is. Now to enter this paradise earth one must obey all the commandments and the words of Jesus, who set it out clearly who WONT be accorded this salvation.

If you are practicing the things that the Bible says are wrong, sinful and you do not repent, then you are not fit for the New Paradise world. or in your favorite saying, not fit for "salvation".

Any one that died without hearing about Gods word will, by Jehovah's undeserved kindness, be resurrected after the New World is established, and will be judged during the 1000 year period.

The is the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. There could be many God fearing people in the world that have not heard about God's word. The righteous will be the ones now following God's word as best as they can, obeying all the things that the Bible teaches as being unacceptable, and the Jws are trying their best, through the guidance of the Governing Body, and not the Registered Organizations that you tend to condemn.

If you can look at your "faith" And say you are following all the things that the Bible tells us must be followed, then it would be very acceptable that you joined with others that are doing the same thing.

So, let me ask you a question: Are you avoiding all the things that the Bible tells us to avoid so as to become "clean" and a worthy follower of Jesus as a Christian and faithful to his Heavenly Father?

Now many died before Jesus set up the Heavenly Kingdom which received the 144000, so then the ones before Jesus did that, ones such as John the Baptizer, Moses, Abraham, Able, and all the faithful ones of old will be resurrected into the new world, not into this wicked world that has to go before God gives us access to the Paradise Earth.

So, like all other religions, the JW believe that they are the only ones being faithful to God's word, and you cannot take that away from them just because you do not believe what they do,

The JWs are trying to study the Bible and gain knowledge of what it is that Jehovah want us humans to do do gain his favour. Many fail and drop out, or be disfelloeshipped, and become apostates on religious forums spitting bile at the organizations that would not cater to their selfish desires.

Many also return, repenting for their sins and again take up the Truth as we call it.

No matter which country, island or isolated groups of people the JWs preach the same thing as they do in any other place. There is no allowance for local customs and inclusions of local gods or practices, it is one word, one teaching from the Christian Bible.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to marakorpa]

No, that is not at all accurate. I take issue with any form of religion that claims it, and it alone, is the only true religion. There are conservative or fundamentalist segments of the religious community that do claim their church, and theirs alone, is the only true one. But there are many of us liberals around, who take issue with such a narrow approach. True, I may not be able to debate much with the Society, but that is because certain members have refused to discuss matters with me. And that's their problem, not mine. I'm no surprised. After all, I'm Trinitarian, intellectual, a smoker, feel alcohol and pot are God's gifts to humanity, believe in blood transfusions, higher education, patriotism, saluting the flag, etc. No, from the Society POV, I have too many strikes against me to count as anything in its eyes as but a lost soul and child of the Devil.

[For_The_Kingdom]

The simple answer to your question would be simpler if you removed you head from the title Jehovah Witnesses and replaced it with the faithful God serving people of the world.

?

Jehovah created man, and he loved what he created, putting them in a paradise garden with the promise that they would live forever in the earth under such conditions.

Ok.

So, the paradise earth is the "salvation" you talk about, I think, as you have not told us what your idea of salvation is. Now to enter this paradise earth one must obey all the commandments and the words of Jesus, who set it out clearly who WONT be accorded this salvation.

My idea of salvation is what the Bible tells me it is...the concept of salvation is to be "saved" from the wrath of God on judgement day, when he sentences Satan and his demons to the lake of fire along with anyone else whose name isn't found in the Book of Life. (Rev 20:10-15).

That is what the Bible clearly says.

If you are practicing the things that the Bible says are wrong, sinful and you do not repent, then you are not fit for the New Paradise world. or in your favorite saying, not fit for "salvation".

Fine...so then my question immediately becomes: Do I have to be a Jehovah's Witness in order to NOT practice things that the Bible says are wrong. Can I refuse to become part of the WTS organization all while NOT practicing the things that the Bible says is wrong?

Any one that died without hearing about Gods word will, by Jehovah's undeserved kindness, be resurrected after the New World is established, and will be judged during the 1000 year period.

See, that right there^. That is just completely FALSE. Where in the Bible does it say that "those that died without hearing about God's word will be resurrected and judged during the 1000 year period".

Where does it say that?? Revelations 20:1-6 talks about the 1000 year reign, and it simply does NOT say what you are claiming will happen. It just doesn't. So you are spreading unBiblical doctrine, sir, which is problem.

The is the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. There could be many God fearing people in the world that have not heard about God's word.

Sure, and they will all be judged according to what they know/knew...point blank, period. However the case may be, any doctrine of second chances is unBiblical.

The righteous will be the ones now following God's word as best as they can, obeying all the things that the Bible teaches as being unacceptable, and the Jws are trying their best, through the guidance of the Governing Body, and not the Registered Organizations that you tend to condemn.

I'd like an answer to my question regarding the Biblical recipe for eternal salvation. Can I be saved by the blood of Christ without having been a Jehovah's Witness and part of the WTS? Yes or no.

If you can look at your "faith" And say you are following all the things that the Bible tells us must be followed, then it would be very acceptable that you joined with others that are doing the same thing. So, let me ask you a question: Are you avoiding all the things that the Bible tells us to avoid so as to become "clean" and a worthy follower of Jesus as a Christian and faithful to his Heavenly Father?

I am a sinner. I need a Savior. I have my faults just like everyone else. I am not perfect. While there is room for improvement, there has also been a great deal of improvement. There are things that I DON'T do strictly because I know that they are un-Christlike...however, there are things that I do that I shouldn't do.

I struggle with sin, yes I do. I am forever at the mercy of Christ and regardless of what I do...I will forever praise, worship, and defend his name.

Now many died before Jesus set up the Heavenly Kingdom which received the 144000

No where in the Bible does it state that only 144k people will get to Heaven. I challenge you to give the scripture which states such. Yet another un-Biblical doctrine by Jehovah's Witnesses.

so then the ones before Jesus did that, ones such as John the Baptizer, Moses, Abraham, Able, and all the faithful ones of old will be resurrected into the new world, not into this wicked world that has to go before God gives us access to the Paradise Earth.

UnBiblical.

So, like all other religions, the JW believe that they are the only ones being faithful to God's word, and you cannot take that away from them just because you do not believe what they do

Sure, I can't take away what they BELIEVE...but I can point out if what they believe is not in line with the Bible. Jesus did not say that you have to be part of an organization to be "faithful to God's word". Jesus said that the truth and the light is through HIM, not JW's or the WTS.

The JWs are trying to study the Bible

Correction: JW's study from the badly translated and deliberately deceptive New World's Translation of the scriptures. The NWT has been translated, modified, and edited in ways that only reflect WTS's theology.

Some of the renderings are down right embarrasing, yet laughable at the same time. SMH.

gain knowledge of what it is that Jehovah want us humans to do do gain his favour. Many fail and drop out, or be disfelloeshipped, and become apostates on religious forums spitting bile at the organizations that would not cater to their selfish desires.

If they are disfellowshipped, then the WTS has done them a favor. If they drop out, then they've done themselves a favor. If you are part of a bad organization, it really doesn't matter whether the organization kick you out, or if you voluntarily quit.

The point is, you are OUT...which is all that matters.

Many also return, repenting for their sins and again take up the Truth as we call it.

Sure, they return because they have been brainwashed to believe that a separation from the organization is also a separation from God. That is a failure on their part, because they placed a man-made organization ahead of Jesus Christ.

No matter which country, island or isolated groups of people the JWs preach the same thing as they do in any other place. There is no allowance for local customs and inclusions of local gods or practices, it is one word, one teaching from the Christian Bible.

That is fine. But the question remains; is salvation through Jesus Christ or throught the Watch Tower and Tract Society? Can a person living today receive eternal life through Christ if he is not a Jehovah's Witness?

[marakorpa]

[Replying to hoghead1]

So by your own confession you are not a Christian....End of discussion.

[marakorpa]

[Replying to post 342 by For_The_Kingdom]

I honestly cannot and will not answer your condemnations. You have too many false positives in your tirade.

Obviously you do not read the Bible, and just hope that the JWs cannot back up what they say.

AS for the NWT it is the most accurate rendition of the Holy Scriptures you will ever get....But be good to your self and pick the parts that you disagree with and research those parts.

You might like to read these comments from learned men who are not JWs, but see value where it stands.

In a letter dated December 8, 1950, noted translator and scholar Edgar J. Goodspeed wrote regarding the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures: “I am interested in the mission work of your people, and its world wide scope, and much pleased with the free, frank and vigorous translation. It exhibits a vast array of sound serious learning, as I can testify.�
Bible translator and scholar Edgar J. Goodspeed

Professor Allen Wikgren of the University of Chicago cited the New World Translation as an example of a modern speech version that rather than being derived from other translations, often has “independent readings of merit.�—The Interpreter’s Bible, Volume I, page 99.

Commenting on the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, British Bible critic Alexander Thomson wrote: “The translation is evidently the work of skilled and clever scholars, who have sought to bring out as much of the true sense of the Greek text as the English language is capable of expressing.�—The Differentiator, April 1952, page 52.

Despite noting what he felt were a few unusual renderings, author Charles Francis Potter said: “The anonymous translators have certainly rendered the best manuscript texts, both Greek and Hebrew, with scholarly ability and acumen.�—The Faiths Men Live By, page 300.

Although he felt that the New World Translation had both peculiarities and excellences, Robert M. McCoy concluded his review of it by stating: “The translation of the New Testament is evidence of the presence in the movement [Jehovah’s Witnesses] of scholars qualified to deal intelligently with the many problems of Biblical translation.�—Andover Newton Quarterly, January 1963, page 31.

Professor S. MacLean Gilmour, while not agreeing with some renderings in the New World Translation, still acknowledged that its translators “possessed an unusual competence in Greek.�—Andover Newton Quarterly, September 1966, page 26.

In his review of the New World Translation that forms part of the Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures, Associate Professor Thomas N. Winter wrote: “The translation by the anonymous committee is thoroughly up-to-date and consistently accurate.�—The Classical Journal, April-May 1974, page 376.

Professor Benjamin Kedar, a Hebrew scholar in Israel, said in 1989: “In my linguistic research in connection with the Hebrew Bible and translations, I often refer to the English edition of what is known as the New World Translation. In so doing, I find my feeling repeatedly confirmed that this work reflects an honest endeavor to achieve an understanding of the text that is as accurate as possible.�

Based on his analysis of nine major English translations, Jason David BeDuhn, associate professor of religious studies, wrote: “The NW [New World Translation] emerges as the most accurate of the translations compared.� Although the general public and many Bible scholars assume that the differences in the New World Translation are the result of religious bias on the part of its translators, BeDuhn stated: “Most of the differences are due to the greater accuracy of the NW as a literal, conservative translation of the original expressions of the New Testament writers.�—Truth in Translation, pages 163, 165.


research other Bible and show the reviews, if you can. Do you think your knowledge is superior to the men who gave the above comments on the NWT.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 342 by For_The_Kingdom]

You clearly do not know anything about the New World Translation. You spew forth just what you have heard about it. It is a highly respected version of the Bible and is translated very carefully. Furthermore, Jehovah's Witnesses do not base their beliefs on that version ONLY. For almost a century, JWs preached using the King James Version. We will discuss the Bible using ANY version.

The NWT was favored by JWs because it puts back Jehovah's name in the 7,000 places that it occurs in the original Hebrew/Aramaic, and also in the N.T., especially where Jesus quotes the O.T.

[tam]

[Replying to hoghead1]

So by your own confession you are not a Christian....End of discussion.

I believe he said that in the eyes of the Society (the WTS) he would have too many strikes against him to be considered a Christian.

Not that he confessed HIMSELF to not being a Christian.




Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

[Replying to hoghead1]

So by your own confession you are not a Christian....End of discussion.

I believe he said that in the eyes of the Society (the WTS) he would have too many strikes against him to be considered a Christian.

Not that he confessed HIMSELF to not being a Christian.




Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Well, that is as good as a profession of anti-Christianity. The WTS has carefully studied Scripture and has determined what true Christians would EXHIBIT as to their orientation. Anyone not DOING what Christ taught would not truly be a Christian, or, a follower of Christ. Hoghead admitted that he didn't fit the bill of being a Christian.

I asked him to say whether or not he had ever been a baptized JW but he didn't answer.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to marakorpa]

What? That crazy? I'm not only Christian, I have my Ph.D. in Christian theology.