Was Jesus and Paul wrong about the Second Coming?

[polonius]

Matt 24:34 Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

Matt 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matt 26:64 Jesus said to him in reply, “You have said so.[a] But I tell you: From now on you will see ‘the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power’ and ‘coming on the clouds of heaven.’�

1Thes 4:15-17 Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.

[Elijah John]

I wonder whether there was a appropriate word for 'generation' at the time when Gospels were written. We know the problem with the word 'love'.

Also six days of creation. How long is a day in God's sight.

It's not just the use of the word "generation" if you want to stretch the meaning of the word to mean "centuries", Jesus was also said to have proclaimed "some of you standing here" ie his contemporaries, his apostles will not taste death until he returns in glory with his Father's angels.

But they are long since dead, and Jesus has not yet returned.

[tam]

I'm not sure the word has to be stretched to centuries - but rather that it refers to a specific people. Those with the same father for instance; or as mentioned earlier, those of the 'wicked' generation that asks for a sign.

**

The "some of you standing here" verse is also not a failed predection. Because:

A - some of those standing there did see Him after He had received all power and authority. Upon His resurrection.

B - John also saw Christ - not just coming into His Kingdom, but also returning - on the Lord's Day, when John was in the spirit. John was alive when he saw it happen (albeit in the future).




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Elijah John]

I'm not sure the word has to be stretched to centuries - but rather that it refers to a specific people. Those with the same father for instance; or as mentioned earlier, those of the 'wicked' generation that asks for a sign.

**

The "some of you standing here" verse is also not a failed predection. Because:

A - some of those standing there did see Him after He had received all power and authority. Upon His resurrection.

B - John also saw Christ - not just coming into His Kingdom, but also returning - on the Lord's Day, when John was in the spirit. John was alive when he saw it happen (albeit in the future).




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

He was speaking of his return in judgement, not the transfiguration, not the resurrection either.
Also, even IF John of Patmos was John the apostle, Jesus was not speaking of a vision, but of an eschatological, visible reality.

And notice Jesus said some of you standing here, not"one of you standing here".

If one, then it could have been John, if some, then it necessitates more than one, whether or not that group included John.

[tam]

Peace to you EJ!

I'm not sure the word has to be stretched to centuries - but rather that it refers to a specific people. Those with the same father for instance; or as mentioned earlier, those of the 'wicked' generation that asks for a sign.

**

The "some of you standing here" verse is also not a failed predection. Because:

A - some of those standing there did see Him after He had received all power and authority. Upon His resurrection.

B - John also saw Christ - not just coming into His Kingdom, but also returning - on the Lord's Day, when John was in the spirit. John was alive when he saw it happen (albeit in the future).




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

He was speaking of his return in judgement, not the transfiguration, not the resurrection either.

The verse does not mention returning in judgment.

Also, even IF John of Patmos was John the apostle, Jesus was not speaking of a vision, but of an eschatological, visible reality.

Yes. John was in the spirit ON THE LORD'S DAY (caps for emphasis, not yelling). Seems to me that John was there in the spirit, and seeing it happen.

And notice Jesus said some of you standing here, not"one of you standing here".

Yes. John is just an example of one who saw it. We do not know, according to anything written, if there is anyone else who saw it.

If one, then it could have been John, if some, then it necessitates more than one, whether or not that group included John.

Correct.

But more than John saw Christ return, having been resurrected, and having been given all power and authority.

And more than one saw the transfiguration (though I do not know, personally, if this is what the Christ meant with His words. I'm not saying that He did not mean this. I do not known. Perhaps it refers to these as well as to those who saw Him after He had risen).



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Monta]

[Replying to post 54 by tam]

"But more than John saw Christ return, having been resurrected, and having been given all power and authority. "

Jesus had huge following.
We can not imagine the impact on people around.
Witnessing the glorified Christ being lifted up would be much more than
the mount of transfiguration. We do not know nor could we envision
the spiritual experiences people would have had.

Paul on the road to Damascus wa blinded for three days from the intensity of
Christ light.

[marco]

Just as those who saw Him but did not see Him for who He is
2000 years ago, so today He comes to those who have eyes to see Him the second time.

The question is, what has he been up to for 2000 years? He said he was ascending to prepare a place for those he'd left behind, but my goodness, what preparations! Of course if he returns secretly and invisibly, one must assume he is acting as a kind of divine undertaker, spiriting the elect to Paradise.

I think the simplest explanation is that he didn't come. The metaphor of clouds holding a being springs from the naïve beliefs of ancient folk. Today we would propose rocket travel and a Kalashnikov.

I understand Isaac Newton calculated his return would occur sometime after 2060.

[JehovahsWitness]

I understand Isaac Newton calculated his return would occur sometime after 2060.

Do you have a reference for this?

JW

[Monta]

[Replying to marco]

"The question is, what has he been up to for 2000 years? He said he was ascending to prepare a place for those he'd left behind, but my goodness, what preparations! Of course if he returns secretly and invisibly, one must assume he is acting as a kind of divine undertaker, spiriting the elect to Paradise."

***The question to ask is, what would be the use of Christ coming back again in a physical form? He came once and accomplished the work of redemption.
I accept that JW and others believe Him to establish an earthly kingdom
but many Chrisians do not hold that view.


"I think the simplest explanation is that he didn't come. The metaphor of clouds holding a being springs from the naïve beliefs of ancient folk. Today we would propose rocket travel and a Kalashnikov. "

*** We can not see a glorified Christ except through a cloud.
Celestial angels of highest enlightement can.

[Elijah John]

The verse does not mention returning in judgment.

Matthew, 16.27,28

27.For the Son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay everyone for what has been done. 28.Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

"Repay" as in retribution, for good or ill. Sure sounds like judgement to me.

"Some standing here" meaning his contemporaries, (apostles) not the reader.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 59 by Elijah John]



Matthew, 16.27,28
Quote:
27.For the Son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay everyone for what has been done. 28.Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

"Repay" as in retribution, for good or ill. Sure sounds like judgement to me. //


Let's stay with 'repay' as in cause and effect, what yu sow yu reap.
But in Christinity there is forgiveness and turning from the evil path towards the good path.
Isn't it like that today in our natural world?
It is basically seperating the evil doers (child abusers, murderers, haters), from good doers; there aren't too many ways of saying it.
Without these laws we could not live as a society.
Can we expect heaven to be different?