Evangelicals vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

[Elijah John]

Evangelicals often call Jehovah's Witnesses, a "cult" and not Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses, seem to consider Roman Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox etc, "not-Christian" (JWs please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Question for debate, why can't all of these groups rightly be considered "Christian"?

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

[For_The_Kingdom]

You keep asking the same questions yet they have been answered over and over. Re-read starting at page 33 of this thread.

Um, no I didn't get an adequate answer to either one of those questions. The first question...

1. How can the WTS be considered the "one and only truth" if a person can not have this "truth", and still receive eternal life?

I don't recall getting an answer to that at ALL.

The second question..

2. What is the Biblical basis for believing that the dead will receive a "second chance" at salvation?

You responded to the second question by mentioning a scripture in Revelations, one which neither says nor implies ANYTHING about a second-chance at salvation..and you followed up this lack of scriptural basis by asking me "do I think that God would destroy those that never heard of Christ" or something along those lines...so at the end of the day, my questions remained unanswered.

So while you continue on this merry-go-round, I am going get off this ride so as to reply to other posts with new content.

Yeah, do that.

[For_The_Kingdom]

So you're saying that A&E were fated to eat from the Tree of Knowledge?

Yeah. Considering that no one is perfect but GOD, why am I to think that A&E would have lived forever and ever without committing one single sin whatsoever?

That being said, this is also turning into an argument FOR the Trinity...considering the fact that Jesus lived a perfect life (free from sin). Therefore, Jesus was/is morally perfect.

Well, if no one is perfect but God, and Jesus was perfect, then it follows that Jesus is God.

Now take that obvious conclusion, and compare that to Heb 1:3..

"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word."

Look at that; if God is the ultimate standard for what it means to be morally perfect/good....and the Son is the EXACT REPRESENTATION of God...and no one is morally perfect but God..then it follows, that Jesus is God.

So, in other words...if we picture the Father (Jehovah), coming to earth, and dwelling among men....he would essentially be JUST LIKE Jesus.

Now, the NWT may render that Heb 1:3 verse differently, for obvious reasons. But yeah, Jesus is God.

I didnt' want to have a debate on the Trinity, yet...but hey.

That A&E didn't have freewill? That God set them up for failure? I didn't think Ttruscoll believed in predestination. I guess that has changed.

Freewill is a tough one. This is the biggest philosophical problem for believers, in my opinion. Can freewill and predestination be reconciled? The question is a good one, and an open one.

I haven't heard a good answer to this question yet.

[For_The_Kingdom]

Then everyone is wrong. People leave Jehovah first and then leave the JW religion.

Nonsense. The testimonials of ex-Witnesses on Youtube reflect people who've maintained their Christianity after having left the WTS. So, they didn't "leave" Jehovah...they "accepted" Christ fully...and you cannot get to Jehovah until you first accept Christ.

Jesus said that. John 14:6.

Those that believe Satan was telling the truth to A&E, that they will never actually die will want nothing to do with the JW religion and will never be asked to join. This is fine with us.

There aren't that many new converts, anyway. Most JW's are born into the religion. They weren't "converted" into the religion. By now, most people already know about Jehovah's Witnesses, and don't give them the time of day except to refute some of their unBiblical claims.

We don't want people trying to teach people in our congregations that Satan was telling the truth and what Jehovah God said was actaully...how did you put it? Oh yes...

They don't want people asking questions, either, because remember, independent thinking isn't permitted...

"Avoid independent thinking...questioning the counsel that is provided by God's visible organization" (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 22).

"Fight against independent thinking." (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983, pg 27)

"The Bible cannot be properly understood without Jehovah's visible organization in mind" (The Watchtower; 10/1/1967; pp. 587).

They also wouldn't want new converts to know of the past false prophecies that came directly from the governing body...and also about the doctrine flip flops over time.

They probably wouldn't want any new converts to know about the various sex abuse scandals that have taken place over the course of the years.

What God meant is actually irrelevant.

I want no part in a doctrine that teaches that God's meanings are 'irrelevant'.

I never said that..and I would appreciate if you don't continue to misquote me.

[2timothy316]

You keep asking the same questions yet they have been answered over and over. Re-read starting at page 33 of this thread.

Um, no I didn't get an adequate answer to either one of those questions. .

No, you didn't hear the answer you wanted to hear. Big difference. Nothing except what you want to hear will be adequate. But I will not lie to you just so you can hear what you want to hear. As I recall you keep telling me what I believe and how I feel etc etc. You don't listen to what say or nor to any of my fellow Witnesses. So I give up. My only option is placing you on my ignore list as to save time on post that actually have a direction instead of circles. So save your time replying to my post as I will not see them.

2 Timothy 2:14, 16, 23.

[ttruscott]

I'm curious...Since the serpent arrived in the garden as fallen and with evil intent, what command did he disobey? When did he chose to rebel? When did he choose to separate himself from GOD IF Adam brought sin into the world by eating?

Before the creation of the physical world, there was an apparent heavenly realm at which some angels rebelled against God, with Satan at the forefront.

Since the serpent entered the garden with evil intent, we know that the angelic rebellion happened previously to the garden being finished yet it is the fullness of creation that GOD calls very good. This tells us that some things not morally good existed in the very good creation...which pushes the hunt for what was good about moral badness. The best solution to my mind is in the idea that when GOD said HIS physical creation was very good though it contained some very evil angels, HE meant the physical creation, especially the earth, was very good for HIS purpose which was the redemption of HIS sinful elect, the good seed that must live with the tares, the people of the evil one to learn sanctification.

So once we have the idea that some moral evil existed at the time of HIS pronouncement that everything was very good, we can re-read the story without putting upon it a pre-judgement that all must have been morally good and have a bit more critical eye. In fact, since the only reason to assume that Adam and Eve were morally good in the garden is based upon the words they were very good and that they had been supposedly just created and GOD cannot create evil people then when we look critically at some of their actions, we have more leeway in deciding what was happening.

The indications that Adam and Eve were not pure and innocent:

1. They were called naked, the same word used to designate the serpent's evil as crafty when a perfectly good word for being uncloathed without connotation of evil was available. Since there is no sin in being naked yet it was their nakedness they saw when their eyes were opened to their sin, this nakedness must be symbolic for being unclothed before the Lord, that is, evil.

2. The sin they become aware of by eating was their nakedness which they had before they ate.

3. Adam tried to mate with the animals but did not find one suitable to be his helpmate. Was this GOD's idea? Doubtful, eh. But why did GOD not just tell him HE had a suitable mate for him, that is, Eve, if Adam was not rejecting her or the idea of her as the one who could help him? Was GOD holding back necessary input or was HE just resigned to Adam's rebellious, that is, evil pov?

4. Before they ate, they fellowshipped with the serpent, discussed theology and were inclined to follow his definitions of reality. Such an acceptance of the serpent, GOD's great enemy, is obviously idolatry even before Eve ate, a sin that is glossed over because it was already included in the word naked.

5. They were given a command 'not to eat.' The purpose of the law is to teach us (open our eyes) about our own sinfulness: Romans 7:7 ...Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. The fact of the law proves sin.

IF A&E were sinful when they were moved to the garden: (sown there, as it were, as according to Matt 13:37-39 …37 And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil,)

it is easy to see that their eating opened their eyes to their sin which they had been rejecting (they were not ashamed) so they could repent and be brought to Christ (symbolized by the skin coats). At the same time they learned the true nature of the evil of their friend and mentor, the serpent who sold them out for his own ends, and with their idolatry broken by this truth, they would never follow him again.

This event was a great blessing to them and the only reason this story is called the Fall instead of the First Great Blessing on Earth is because of the theory that they were created here on earth and therefore had to be innocent, a fallacy that has caused no end of blasphemy.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 433 by ttruscott]

So would you say that Adam and Eve were at some point going to rebel at some point regardless if Satan lied to them or not? God said of Cain, who wanted to kill his brother, that 'sin is crouching at the entrance' for Cain. Was A&E created with this same problem or did they have this problem only after they rebelled and their 'eyes were opened'?

[For_The_Kingdom]

No, you didn't hear the answer you wanted to hear.

Big difference. Nothing except what you want to hear will be adequate. But I will not lie to you just so you can hear what you want to hear.

Nonsense. You were simply unable to answer direct/simple questions regarding a man-made organization (Watchtower and Tract Society) that was founded by a man that gave false prophecies and a practitioner of pyramidology (Charles Taze Russell).

As I recall you keep telling me what I believe and how I feel etc etc.

Nonsense. I linked you in with the status quo of your RELIGION. You guys (Jehovah's Witnesses) always boast about how in harmony you all are in regards to the scriptures, how the organization operates, and what you guys believe in...but once someone exposes the organization and all of its dirty laundry, all of a sudden you want to distance yourself away from them.

Like I said, everyone knows that Jehovah's Witnesses only believe what the WTS tells them to believe. That is common knowledge, despite you acting as if it is brand new.

You don't listen to what say or nor to any of my fellow Witnesses.

I listen, I just don't accept what you say. Big difference.

So I give up. My only option is placing you on my ignore list as to save time on post that actually have a direction instead of circles. So save your time replying to my post as I will not see them.

That is what happens when a Jehovah's Witness encounters someone who knows the Scriptures. Those Kingdom Hall classes can only get you so far....eventually, the Truth will prevail.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to For_The_Kingdom]

Despite the Society's song and dance, it is not going to play, not a bit of it, with major biblical scholars, who are well aware and have well documented that the NWT is corrupt. The Society's propaganda calms it has support from the scholarly community, but it definitely does not. There is good reason to suspect the Society completely fabricated a letter from Godspeed in support of the NWT, for example. Recently, the Society has cited a favorable response from a contemporary scholar named Beduhn. However, they neglect to mention he is not a recognized NT scholar, his specialty area is comparative religions, not biblical studies, he has not dialogued with other colleagues on his conclusions, and has said, on a number of occasions, that he prefers to translate the pass as the as the Word was "divine," as this better serves the Trinitarian thrust of the NT. And those are just a few of the many dubious and false claims the Society has made about the NWT.

When faced with serious scholarly criticism, the Society simply resorts to its anti-intellectual propaganda campaign, whereby higher education is written off as a thing of the Devil.

[Claire Evans]

Evangelicals often call Jehovah's Witnesses, a "cult" and not Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses, seem to consider Roman Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox etc, "not-Christian" (JWs please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Question for debate, why can't all of these groups rightly be considered "Christian"?

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

Christianity is just a name. The Vatican is Satanic yet the RCC is considered Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses was founded by Charles Taze Russell, a 33rd degree Freemason. Freemasonry is Lucifer worship.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20 ... ses/jw.htm

Basically it is Satanism under the guise of Christianity.

This is one of the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses:


Heaven. Jehovah God, Jesus Christ, and the faithful angels reside in the spirit realm. * (Psalm 103:19-21; Acts 7:55) A relatively small number of people—144,000—will be resurrected to life in heaven to rule with Jesus in the Kingdom.—Daniel 7:27; 2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 5:9, 10; 14:1, 3."

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... s-beliefs/


Revelation is said to be tainted with the occult. It has been tampered with.

I think the number 144 000 is an occult insertion. In Tutankhamen's sun necklace, the numbers 144 000 and 666 are encoded.

The carving of Lord Pacal had 144 000 on his forehead encoded also.

https://books.google.co.za/books?id=D3F ... 00&f=false

So I think 144 000 in Revelation does not apply to those saved.

[Elijah John]

Christianity is just a name. The Vatican is Satanic yet the RCC is considered Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses was founded by Charles Taze Russell, a 33rd degree Freemason. Freemasonry is Lucifer worship.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Religions/Jehovah Witnesses/jw.htm

Basically it is Satanism under the guise of Christianity.

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