Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

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Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #1

Post by Blastcat »

Hi gang !

Once again, while showering, something came to mind...

William Lane Craig is famous for his re-working of the old Kalam Cosmological argument for the existence of God. Here it is in a nut-shell for those who might need a bit of a refresher. Craig states the Kalam cosmological argument as a brief syllogism, most commonly rendered as follows:

______________

The argument:

P1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause;
P2. The universe began to exist;

Therefore:

C1. The universe has a cause.

From the conclusion of the initial syllogism, he appends a further premise and conclusion based upon ontological analysis of the properties of the cause:

P3. The universe has a cause;
P4. If the universe has a cause, then an uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful;

Therefore:

C. An uncased, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful.

____________

This thread wants to take a good look at P1. that is, the very first premise of the argument that states :"Whatever begins to exist has a cause."

As in all arguments, if we accept that this premise is true, we move on to the next premise, and so on, to it's conclusion that must follow from one to the next without any gaps.

Now, if we cannot demonstrate that a premise in the argument is TRUE, then the argument may be VALID, but not sound. The conclusion we get from an argument is just as weak as it's weakest link, so to speak.

So, what about the first premise?

Is it TRUE that "Whatever begins to exist has a cause"?

I am a skeptic at heart, so I am suspicious about that.


Let me give some preliminary reasons, that I got while showering with my Spiderman "Spidey Sense" Soft Soap ®... ( very refreshing ) :


1. Right off the bat, I would have my skeptical spidey sense tingling by the sentence itself. It seems to imply that some things begin to exist, and that others may not begin to exist. I'm not too sure what that means... What does it MEAN to say that something has a "beginning" to it's existence? What does it MEAN to say that not all things begin to exist? Which kinds of things begin to exist, and which kinds of things don't begin to exist? Now, we need rigorous definitions, don't we? Anyone has those? I sure don't. The more that I look, the more confused I get.

2. It doesn't say what hasn't begun to exist. But I suspect that the case is very well chosen. Some people might protest that there is a difference between saying that something doesn't begin to exist and saying that something hasn't yet begun to exist. We are now having to make a distinction that is very subtly grammatical.

3. Of course, if something has not yet begun to exist, it cannot yet exist. But if we are trying to prove that something has caused the universe, it at least has to exist in some way. Otherwise, the argument... is weird.

4. The Kalam is very old.. It wasn't always phrased the way that WLC does. In fact, WLC has introduced the word "begins to" ... because before we could ask "Who caused God?". So, it seems that Craig wants to save the argument by replacing "exists" by "begins to exist". If only GOD doesn't "begin to exist", then I see special pleading going on.

5. Craig says this about the nature of "God's" infinity:

"God's infinity is, as it were, qualitative, not quantitative. It means that God is metaphysically necessary, morally perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, eternal, and so on."

In other words, when Craig uses the term "infinite" to refer to a being who doesn't begin, he isn't talking about numbers, but characteristics. I "began to exist" in the middle 50's. See how that's a number? I could have started counting the years of my "existence" at 0, or 1, or some other NUMBER, but it's weird to think that we don't COUNT things without numbers.. but if there are no NUMBERS, to me, it's weird to say that something began or didn't begin. Time is a series of numbers, one after another.. seconds, minutes, days, weeks, months, years.. eons.. we count those, because they are NUMBERED. If it can't be counted, I don't know how it can be called "time", and if it isn't "time" we are talking about.. causation seems a bit weird to be talking about.. and to begin.. implies "time"... so again.. very weird.

So, when I read "Whatever BEGINS to exist.." I think "What on earth is Craig talking about"? A quality or a measurable instance of time? If the word BEGINS is an instance of time that is measurable for everything ELSE but "God", this is special pleading once again.

6. The second part.. "A CAUSE" ... this is the really REALLY weird part.. and I will keep it short. You see, Craig doesn't like infinite regresses.. so, the universe can't be it's own cause due to an infinite regress.. what cause the cause of the cause.. and so on.. Physical matter NOT of this universe can't be the cause because.. what's the cause of THAT.. and so on.. more infinite regress. The very ODD thing about Craig's solution, "God", is that it is eternal in the past.. In other words, it seems to "cause the cause of the cause of the cause.. " in an infinite regress. To me, and this is just preliminary thinking, he solves one infinity.. "Cause" with another infinity "God".


Just some thoughts.. I have my doubts about the first premise.

_____________

So, here are the questions for debate:


1. Is it true that things that have a beginning have a cause?
2. How something hasn't begun to exist, continue to exist?

_____________


:)

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Post #241

Post by Willum »

I am very confused as to why this isn't wrapped up:

P1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause;

Is answered decisively by the conservation of matter and energy.
Nothing ever begins to exist. It is matter (and energy) transformed from one state to another.
The humble hydrogen atom is unchanging forever-more and forever into the past.
Even the Big Bang, if it is true, and if it accounts for all the matter in the universe - which is by no means reasonable - only reflects a state change of bosons (or quark-gluons) to hydrogen. Mass is conserved.

So, nothing ever truly begins.

The universe never began.
It only changed, much like a butterfly from a caterpillar.

Contrast this observable reality: hydrogen "immortality," unchanging, etc., with something unobserved, an unobservable creator.

There is no need for the KCA, there is no longer a logical basis for it.
Think about it:
The atoms in the glass of water you are drinking is are unchanged and as old as the universe itself. If some of them were NOT a part of the Big Bang, with no reason to believe it is or isn't, it is very likely those atoms are many many times older than our universe.
Conversely, if it was a part of the Big Bang, it was part of a transformation. From an alien state of matter, to this more familiar one.

Both of these alternates are infinitely more profound and demonstrable then some, "I don't know, God did it," premise.

Think about it.

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Post #242

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 238 by Willum]

This has absolutely nothing to do with his account of causality, which still holds today, just as it did back then. I strongly encourage you to at least read Hume before commenting. Another great soured to read would be the writings of the famous philosopher Alfred North Whitehead (1861-1947) on the subject of causality.

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Post #243

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 241 by hoghead1]

I have read Hume.
Kant.
Aquinas.
I never could get into Plato.
etc..
I have a book series on them.

They were great for their times. But they had no comprehension of many things today we take for granted.

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Post #244

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 242 by Willum]

Well, I would encourage you to look again at his material on causality.

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Post #245

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to hoghead1]

I just did, as a matter of fact. His view on causality was a major dimension of my dissertation, by the way. Also, you might want to take a look at Whitehead, as I suggested. Also, would you please make your point about causality. I'm still in the dark exactly what you are trying to prove.

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Post #246

Post by Willum »

[Replying to hoghead1]

And what would you have us do about Einstein's view of causality?
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.

You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

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Post #247

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to Willum]

Sorry, but I still don't follow your point and so I don't understand the relevance of your question.

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Post #248

Post by Willum »

[Replying to hoghead1]

Hi HH-
In fact I was not the one to bring up causality.
I was just calling attention to the fact that if Hume had known what Einstein knew about causality, his opinion would change.

That would be why he is great.

(The link to post 211, above, is what got this ball rolling... with thanks to riku', and yourself, of course.)
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.

You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

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Post #249

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 247 by Willum]

Could you explain that, please? Offhand, it makes absolutely no sense to me.

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Post #250

Post by Willum »

[Replying to hoghead1]

Things change.
The greatest concepts of the 18th century can become thoroughly antiquated in the light of new discovery.
Whatever Hume thought he new about causality was changed by what science has discovered since.

Have we buried the KCA yet?
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.

You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

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