Evangelicals vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

[Elijah John]

Evangelicals often call Jehovah's Witnesses, a "cult" and not Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses, seem to consider Roman Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox etc, "not-Christian" (JWs please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Question for debate, why can't all of these groups rightly be considered "Christian"?

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

[2timothy316]

I think all denominations want to make their doctrine work and interpret accordingly.

Yes, I agree mostly. But I don't think all do. Many most certainly put doctrine before anything else and it's making that doctrine work is what drives interpretations. Yet the questions I always ask myself when reading the Bible. 'Does what I read harmonize with the rest of the Bible?'

For example, Ecc 9:5 says the dead no nothing at all. Then in there is Rev 20:10 that says the Devil will tormented day and night by fire forever. These appear contradictory. Yet for a person like me that has full confidence that the Bible doesn't contradict itself. However, these scriptures don't seem to harmonize. So when this happens the next question comes up. 'Is the scripture I read symbolic?' In this case I need to find the truth if Ecc 9:5 is symbolic or Rev 20:10 is symbolic. My doctrine doesn't matter at this point as I have not made one yet. Because truth is my driving factor. So how do I find the truth of these scriptures? How can I find out which one is symbolic? Some would go to their preacher for their answer. What I have found is that only the Bible can shed light on truth. In the case of Ecc 9:5 and Rev 20:10 my study in the Bible as shown that Rev 20:10 is being symbolic. That the Lake of Fire means not eternal suffering but eternal destruction. How did I come to this?

It wasn't my doctrine, it was the comparison of 1 Cor. 15:26 and Rev 20:14. In 1 Cor 15:26 it says that death is brought to nothing. In Rev 20:14 it says death is placed in the Lake of Fire. Boom! Lake of Fire explained. So all the scriptures harmonize now. Hell is nothing more than the grave and something placed in the the Lake of Fire symbolizes something that is destroyed never to return or as 1 Cor 15:26 says, 'brought to nothing'. Now I have a doctrine. I don't place doctrine before the Bible. Those that do will only see what they want to see from the Bible. The rest is ignored. I had a guy one time rip the page that had Ecc 9:5 on it. He then told me, 'The Bible doesn't say that anymore!' Doctrines not from the Bible will be at odds with the Bible to the point only one can survive in a person's heart. Either the doctrine or the Bible. I personally choose the Bible.

Those who believe they are immune from this very human trait are possibly most vulnerable to it.

There is a TED talk on a similar subject. I think you might enjoy it. It talks about how being wrong and accepting it is what allows mankind to prevail. Yet the arrogant will suffer.



In Eph 5:17 it admonishes, "On this account stop being unreasonable, but keep perceiving what the will of Jehovah is." We are encouraged to keep reading and keep seeking truth. We can't be dogmatic and unreasonable and find truth.

[Claire Evans]

In reply to post #450 by Claire Evans:

You say that Russell "might well have" been made a Freemason. But you are not sure. So your going on and on about how Satanic he is is rather needless.

I said if he wasn't for argument's sake. However, this is a quote of his:

"Our Masonic friends have it down very fine. I do not know where they got it so well. I have often wondered where they found out so many of the secrets of our High and Accepted Order of Masonry."
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quot ... 90096.html

There are some quotes where he denies it, though, but this is from his own mouth, too. And:

“…Each of these explanations put forth, has some merit. But there is another
explanation. One that seems bizarre, so bizarre that this author dismissed it until
such time as he was able to confirm C.T. Russell's Masonic membership. C.T.
Russell's membership records in the Masonic Knights Templar are kept in Ireland.
The Blue Lodge records belong to the Grand Lodge of PA. Lady Queenborough in
her book Occult Theocracy published in 1933 notes on page 737 C.T.Russell's
Masonic membership. His Masonic membership must have also been common
knowledge to those associated with him, and those acquainted with the
prominence Russell gave to the Knights Templar logo…Evidence shows C.T.
Russell was not only a high Freemason, but prominent in their schemes, in other
words he was a key player. Watchtowers are very important to the very highest
Freemasons. The highest secret knowledge of many Masonic rites including such
rites as the Scottish Rite, the Rite of Memphis, the Rite of Mizraim, etc. is
concentrated in a high level group of llluminati"

Charles T. Russell had quite a few ideas, back in the late 1800s and very early 1900s, that were erroneous. He was fascinated with the Great Pyramid, he used the cross as a symbol for the literature, he thought of himself as "the faithful & wise servant" of Matthew 24:45, he didn't realize that the Jews were not God's representative people any longer, he saw advantages in segregation, and he celebrated all of the holidays....just to name a few. (There really aren't many more.)

But regardless, he had the basics of Bible truth down pat. He recognized the importance of Christ's ransom sacrifice, which the churches he was familiar with were not teaching. He discerned that there is no literal hell-fire, that God is not a trinity, the soul is not immortal, and God's personal name is important to His people. He also never took up a collection at any of his meetings.

Russell thinks Jesus is a subordinate to God. JW's deny the resurrection of Christ which is the crux of Christianity.

"Russell made this false prediction in 1889 (and it‘s found in volume 2
of his book “The Millennial Dawn, The Time Is At Hand�). Russell even declared that the Millennium would take place in 1872. That of course didn‘t occur at all. Charles Taze Russell wrote that: “... that in the spring of 1878 all the holy apostles and other 'overcomers' of the Gospel age who slept in Jesus were raised spirit beings.� (C.T.Russell: Studies in the Scriptures Vol. 3, p. 234)"

If the soul is not immortal, how can any spirit be raised?

He started the movement of true Christians shining forth as illuminators in the Last Days with his own money, and he said that if he and his friends were truly doing God's work, God would see to it that the work continued.

Illuminators? That sounds like the Illuminati.


"This type of combination typifies so many of the elite who I have researched. In the Be Wise As Serpents book, chapter 1.11 discusses how the Satanism within the Illuminati and the Watchtower Society could be tracked by an understanding of Enochian magic. Readers may want to refer back to that chapter after reading this paragraph. The Illuminati operating within the Watchtower Society use the Enochian Language which has its own language and its own Enochian alphabet (letters in boxes).

According to eyewitnesses who have left the J.W. part of the Illuminati, the Enochian alphabet is known and used as the cult language by those Illuminati operating in the high levels of the Watchtower Society. In other words, their ceremonies are done in this ritual Enochian language. Sir William Sinclair in the 16th century was one of those who introduced Enochian Magic to Scotland. The Scottish connection in the Watchtower Society is overpowering. Both the Russell and the Rutherford families came from Scotland as well as MacMillan and many other key early Watchtower leaders.

From this it appears that the Scottish type of Illuminatism that created the early Watchtower Society has always practiced Enochian magic. Remember from the Be Wise As Serpents book that knowing the Watchtowers is the key to Enochian magic. The same type of winged-sun-disk that C.T. Russell used was also used on the ......... Magic. Two phrases that were popular among satanists who practiced Enochian Magic in Rumli's day were ‘Millennial Dawn and ‘Golden Age.’"

He alone of his contemporaries saw the significance of the year 1914, though he was not right that Christ's co-rulers would go to heaven in that year. He knew, though, that it marked "the end of the times of the Gentiles" (Luke 21:24).

1914 marked the end times of the gentiles?


Sources:

https://martyrsmirror.files.wordpress.c ... itness.pdf

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/blood ... ussell.htm

[marco]

Because truth is my driving factor.

This is commendable. I believe you mean you are driven by a search for truth rather than truth drives you, for of course our ideas are a mix of truth, assumptions and falsehoods. When you read the Bible you form an opinion as to what a verse can mean. When it states that the dead know nothing is this a simple platitude or a the foundation of a startling theology? Our interpretation will depend on the people who have influenced our thought, people we trust, people we suppose to be more learned than we are or perhaps it will be formed from our own private view, biased perhaps by what we bring to the table. It is so very hard to isolate truth here.

There is more to interpretation than taking something as symbolic and something as literal.

Yet the arrogant will suffer.

The arrogant, by definition, are not in possession of truth; arrogance being a flaw. But of course those who declare that they are in possession of truth are themselves in danger of succumbing to arrogance, all unawares. Each system of belief has its proponents firmly declaring they are right because the Bible is on their side - as well as Christ. Judge not, lest ye yourself be judged, is possibly the wisest way. Then we treat every belief system with scepticism.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to Claire Evans]

Extensive investigation in to the membership rolls of the Masons reveals Charles Taze Russell was never a Mason. There is absolutely no evidence the Society practices Enochian magic, either.

[onewithhim]

In reply to post #450 by Claire Evans:


Russell thinks Jesus is a subordinate to God. JW's deny the resurrection of Christ which is the crux of Christianity.

He started the movement of true Christians shining forth as illuminators in the Last Days with his own money, and he said that if he and his friends were truly doing God's work, God would see to it that the work continued.

Illuminators? That sounds like the Illuminati.

He alone of his contemporaries saw the significance of the year 1914, though he was not right that Christ's co-rulers would go to heaven in that year. He knew, though, that it marked "the end of the times of the Gentiles" (Luke 21:24).

1914 marked the end times of the gentiles?

Jehovah's Witnesses certainly DO NOT deny the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He was brought back to life after three days in the grave, with a spirit body. Do you not think that a spirit body is real?

"So also it is written, 'The first man, Adam, became a living soul.' The last Adam [Christ] became a life-giving spirit." (I Corinthians 15:45, NASB)

He couldn't take back his fleshly body because he SACRIFICED IT for our sins.


Charles Taze Russell didn't make up the word "illuminators." It is a common word associated with anything that causes light to shine. The NWT uses the word "illuminators," and the New American Standard Bible uses the word "lights." They mean the same.


Yes, 1914 marked the end of the times of the Gentiles. This can be discerned by Bible chronology. The prophecy of the great tree that was cut down in the book of Daniel gives us insight into that. The amount of time after the cutting down of the tree until the times of the Gentiles was fulfilled is indicated to us in this prophecy. If you want, I can explain it to you.

[tam]

[Replying to post 463 by onewithhim]

He was brought back to life after three days in the grave, with a spirit body. Do you not think that a spirit body is real?

YES! A spirit body - one that could EAT; one that walked on the earth; one that could be touched and SEEN; one that could also move between walls, appear and disappear (moving from matter to energy; energy to matter), ascend to the spiritual realm (heaven).

Same as the angels can do. Same a we will be able to do in the NEW body; the white robe; the spirit body.

Peace again to you, and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

Very good....except most of us will have PHYSICAL bodies here on Earth. It is here that God made us to live, and His plan hasn't been thwarted.


Psalm 115:16
Isaiah 45:18

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to Claire Evans]

Extensive investigation in to the membership rolls of the Masons reveals Charles Taze Russell was never a Mason.

Who did the extensive investigations?

There is absolutely no evidence the Society practices Enochian magic, either.

There are a few things to consider:

We can infer that the WatchTower Society got its name from the Book of Enoch's Watchers:

In the Book of Enoch, the Watchers (Aramaic עִירִין, iyrin) are angels dispatched to Earth to watch over the humans. They soon begin to lust for human women and, at the prodding of their leader Samyaza, defect en masse to illicitly instruct humanity and procreate among them.

The Watch Tower is the Great Pyramid of Giza. The pyramid is associated with Freemasonry and the occult.

"In the 1920's, (after Russell's death) the Watchtower magazine continued to teach
that the Great Pyramid was God's Stone Witness. "The great Pyramid of Egypt,
standing as a silent and inanimate witness of the Lord, is a messenger; and its
testimony speaks with great eloquence concerning the divine plan."
The Watchtower. 5/15/25.pg148."

See the video at 0:13 min. The publication refers to the Golden Age. Followers of Russel were Millennial Dawnists.



"The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (or, more commonly, the Golden Dawn) was a magical order of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, practicing a form of theurgy and spiritual development. It was possibly the single greatest influence on twentieth century western occultism. Concepts of magic and ritual that became core elements of many other traditions, including Wicca, Thelema and other forms of magical spirituality popular today, are drawn from the Golden Dawn tradition."

A prominent member was Aleister Crowley, a Satanist.

http://www.crystalinks.com/crowley.html

Notice the pyramid head dress:


It's a sad fact that Satanism uses Christianity to further its purposes. Many innocent people are deceived and are none the wiser. I think the agenda is to lure people away from the gospel and get as many people on board with its agenda.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 466 by Claire Evans]

The Masons themselves went over their extensive membership rolls. No Charles Taze Russell was found.

You said "we may infer." OK, but I'd sooner ask the Watchtower Society, to make sure.

The pyramids have been associated with a great number of things. The fact pyramidal-type imagery is used by a group says really nothing abut any connection to the occult.

The Masons are not worshippers of Satan. I should know. My father was a Mason and so was my grandfather, who was a Presbyterian minister.

There is absolutely no evidence the Society practices any form of "magic."

[tigger2]

Claire Evans wrote:

We can infer that the WatchTower Society got its name from the Book of Enoch's Watchers:

Infer all you wish, but the facts are that The WTS does not recognize the Book of Enoch as inspired and does not use it in any capacity. It uses (and quotes) from the OT scriptures:

6 For thus the Lord says to me,
“Go, station the lookout, let him report what he sees.
.... 8 Then the lookout called,
“O Lord, I stand continually by day on the watchtower,
And I am stationed every night at my guard post. - Is. 21:6, 8, NASB.

"In the Book of Enoch, the Watchers (Aramaic עִירִין, iyrin) are angels dispatched to Earth to watch over the humans. They soon begin to lust for human women and, at the prodding of their leader Samyaza, defect en masse to illicitly instruct humanity and procreate among them.

[But we are not speaking of 'the Watchers' or fallen angels!]

"The Watch Tower is the Great Pyramid of Giza. The pyramid is associated with Freemasonry and the occult.

" 'In the 1920's, (after Russell's death) the Watchtower magazine continued to teach
that the Great Pyramid was God's Stone Witness. "The great Pyramid of Egypt,
standing as a silent and inanimate witness of the Lord, is a messenger; and its
testimony speaks with great eloquence concerning the divine plan.'
The Watchtower. 5/15/25.pg148."

The Great Pyramid of Giza was never a 'Watch Tower.' Russell's interest in this structure had nothing to do with a "Watch Tower" (as noted in the quotation of Is. 21 above) but is explained as follows:

In 1859 an “eminently respectable Nottinghamshire Victorian� (Moffett quote) and respected London publisher, John Taylor, published his book, The Great Pyramid: Why Was It Built? And Who Built It?.

Taylor was also an earnest student of mathematics who had spent many long hours examining and analyzing the most accurate and detailed measurements then available for the Great Pyramid: Howard Vyse’s survey in 3 volumes - Operations Carried On At The Pyramids Of Giza.

Taylor’s eight-volume work claimed the Great Pyramid had been built through the inspiration of the God of the Bible. The various measurements of that pyramid were, he said, God-inspired messages to His people.

Then Dr. Charles Piazzi Smyth took over. He was

“a fellow of the Royal Society, Britain’s august high command of the sciences, [and] his father, Admiral William Henry Smyth, had been one before him. At the time the younger Smyth encountered Taylor’s theories, he was both professor of astronomy at Edinburgh University and Astronomer Royal of Scotland.� - Moffett.

Inspired by Taylor’s studies, Smyth launched into a fresh analysis of Howard Vyse’s figures. His calculations and conclusions startled the world: not only was Taylor correct, he declared, but there were many new revelations to be found!
From 1864 until 1890 (at least) Piazzi Smyth was the greatest authority on the revelations of the Great Pyramid measurements.

Others, however, also became popular in this field.

“The heyday of pyramidology was to dawn in 1924, with the publication of The Great Pyramid: Its Divine Message. This was primarily the work of an English structural engineer named David Davidson.� - Moffett, Secrets of the Pyramids Revealed.

Many intelligent, knowledgeable people around the world were convinced that the Great Pyramid had been divinely constructed to reveal Biblical truths. True, there was some argument as to which of the many different measurements being reported were the proper measurements. And there were various interpretations as to what each measurement actually represented. And there were a number of stuffy “curmudgeons� who still wouldn’t be convinced by what seemed to be overwhelming statistical proof. But “Pyramid Fever� ran high, nevertheless.

And in 1890 the respected Dr. Piazzi Smyth was the Pyramid Chronology expert!

So, when C. T. Russell began examining Dr. Smyth’s work and comparing it to his own attempts at chronology based on the Bible interpretation alone, it is no wonder he became very excited at what appeared to be an exact proportional match between the lengths of various consecutive measurements in the Pyramid and the lengths of consecutive time periods in his own Bible chronology.

As a result, in 1890, Russell’s “Pyramid� calculations and their interpretation by him were forwarded to Piazzi Smyth in England. Smyth heartily endorsed them in his Dec. 21, 1890 letter which was reproduced in Studies in the Scriptures when Russell published his Great Pyramid testimony. - see pp. 311-312, Thy Kingdom Come.

I have no doubt that Taylor, Prof. Piazzi Smyth, and C. T. Russell (and many thousands of others) were sincere, religious persons who truly believed their interpretations of the Pyramid measurements. They were victims of statistical coincidences and multiple variables: it all honestly appeared to be mathematically precise proof - inescapably certain!

Nevertheless, Russell wrote: “IF this, indeed, prove to be a Bible in stone; IF it be a record of the secret plans of the Great Architect of the universe, displaying his foreknowledge and wisdom; it should and will be in full accord with his written word.� - pp. 317, 326, 341, Thy Kingdom Come.

Sure, Russell was mistaken, but so were numerous experts and thousands of other sincere people. He never claimed to be inspired or infallible in his writings (in fact quite the opposite).