Evangelicals vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

[Elijah John]

Evangelicals often call Jehovah's Witnesses, a "cult" and not Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses, seem to consider Roman Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox etc, "not-Christian" (JWs please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Question for debate, why can't all of these groups rightly be considered "Christian"?

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

[OnceConvinced]

It's a sad fact that Satanism uses Christianity to further its purposes. Many innocent people are deceived and are none the wiser. I think the agenda is to lure people away from the gospel and get as many people on board with its agenda.

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[Claire Evans]

In reply to post #450 by Claire Evans:


Russell thinks Jesus is a subordinate to God. JW's deny the resurrection of Christ which is the crux of Christianity.

He started the movement of true Christians shining forth as illuminators in the Last Days with his own money, and he said that if he and his friends were truly doing God's work, God would see to it that the work continued.

Illuminators? That sounds like the Illuminati.

He alone of his contemporaries saw the significance of the year 1914, though he was not right that Christ's co-rulers would go to heaven in that year. He knew, though, that it marked "the end of the times of the Gentiles" (Luke 21:24).

1914 marked the end times of the gentiles?

Jehovah's Witnesses certainly DO NOT deny the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He was brought back to life after three days in the grave, with a spirit body. Do you not think that a spirit body is real?

"So also it is written, 'The first man, Adam, became a living soul.' The last Adam [Christ] became a life-giving spirit." (I Corinthians 15:45, NASB)

He couldn't take back his fleshly body because he SACRIFICED IT for our sins.

So He didn't have a physical body? Then the whole resurrection story must be a farce because the empty tomb is a big part of Jesus' resurrection. Jesus ate with the disciples. He allowed Thomas to put his finger through his wound. He could be touched physically. His spirit entered His glorified body.

About Corinthians, you need to know the context of that. He was referring to the Gnostic belief that there is only a spiritual resurrection and he was correcting that.

http://www.equip.org/article/the-gnostic-jesus/


Let us look at 1 Corinthians 15:

35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?� 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being�[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.

The Bible is saying that Jesus had His body that was slain but it became a glorified body which could never be corrupted. There is no indication that Jesus just had had spiritual body which was not physical.

Charles Taze Russell didn't make up the word "illuminators." It is a common word associated with anything that causes light to shine. The NWT uses the word "illuminators," and the New American Standard Bible uses the word "lights." They mean the same.

No he did not make up the word "illuminators". The Illuminati, who are occultists, existed before Russell.


plural noun, singular illuminato [ih-loo-muh-nah-toh, -ney-] (Show IPA)
1.
persons possessing, or claiming to possess, superior enlightenment.
2.
(initial capital letter) a name given to different religious societies or sects because of their claim to superior enlightenment.

This is very similar to Gnostic Christians who believe Jesus came to enlighten a few. Do JWs acknowledge the sect is similar to Gnostic Christianity?

Can you give me the references to illuminators in the Bible from the NWT and New American Standard version, please?

Yes, 1914 marked the end of the times of the Gentiles. This can be discerned by Bible chronology. The prophecy of the great tree that was cut down in the book of Daniel gives us insight into that. The amount of time after the cutting down of the tree until the times of the Gentiles was fulfilled is indicated to us in this prophecy. If you want, I can explain it to you.

But it says that what ensues immediately after the end of the times of the Gentiles was Armageddon with heavenly and earthly resurrections. Surely that is a failed prophecy?

http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/faile ... ctions.php

There's something else I'd like to ask you. I have read a bit of the behaviour expected. What happens reminds me of Scientology:


Most Christian churches have a system of moral oversight, but their systems are set up to help individuals with problems. Only after extensive effort over a period of time is action taken. Jehovah's Witnesses claim that Disfellowshipping is a loving act but in fact it is their most important control mechanism. It allows the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society to control its members with guilt and fear.

The Watchtower Society makes a lot of rules, based on their interpretations of various scriptures, that all Jehovah's Witnesses must follow. Members are taught that that they must turn each other in for any rule violations. If they observe another Jehovah's Witness breaking a rule and do not report him or her to the elders they are as guilty as the offending party. Anyone breaking any of the Watchtower Society rules is called before 3 elders in a private meeting that is conducted like a trial. The elders become judge and jury deciding whose is repentant and who is not.

Members who are found to be unrepentant of violations of Watchtower rules by these elders, are disfellowshipped. Jehovah’s Witnesses can be disfellowshipped for a number of rule violations: premarital or extramarital sex, using alcohol excessively, using tobacco products, celebrating Christmas, reciting the pledge of allegiance, lying, stealing, joining the military, speaking to a disfellowshipped Witness, reading religious material not published by the governing body, or running for political office just to name a few. Fellow members are then required to shun him/her completely, having no contact even if the disfellowshipped person is a family member. (Some allowances are made if the family member is living in the same household). Disfellowshipping has a devastating effect because the individual's entire religious, family and social life are rooted in the Society. Keep in mind Jehovah’s Witnesses who are disfellowshipped are no longer part of the Watchtower Society and have, therefore, lost all hope of salvation until they can prove themselves worthy of being accepted back into the Watchtower Organization by their works. Elders in the congregation are the ones who decide when an individual has earned the right to come back into the fold, and the Watchtower Organization instructs elders that it would be very rare for one to earn their way back in less than a year. In order to earn their way back they must attend meetings regularly, sit in the back of the church -Kingdom Hall- while everyone in the congregation ignores them, if anyone did dare to speak to them they could be disfellowshipped themselves. They must do this with the knowledge that if Armageddon should come before they have earned their way back they will be destroyed. Sad to say Disfellowshipping has resulted in suicide. Those who leave on their own are treated just as a disfellowshipped one. Once you join their group there is no easy way out."

http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnesses/Bel ... eliefs.htm


Isn't this saying that JWs must pledge allegiance to the Watch Tower society? Did not Jesus associate Himself with sinful people to heal them? Can the WTS take away salvation? Is that Biblical?

Comments, please?

[Claire Evans]

Claire Evans wrote:

We can infer that the WatchTower Society got its name from the Book of Enoch's Watchers:

Infer all you wish, but the facts are that The WTS does not recognize the Book of Enoch as inspired and does not use it in any capacity. It uses (and quotes) from the OT scriptures:

6 For thus the Lord says to me,
“Go, station the lookout, let him report what he sees.
.... 8 Then the lookout called,
“O Lord, I stand continually by day on the watchtower,
And I am stationed every night at my guard post. - Is. 21:6, 8, NASB.

I wonder if it was really Isaiah who said this. If so, he is insinuating that he is an angel:


They are considered an old race who have gone past the need for physical bodies. Some claim they are light. There are legends that say they came from the stars. They are the ones known as the Watchers. It is claimed that each of the four Watchers reigns over one of the four directions of the circle.

There were star cults in Mesopotamia around 3000 bce. One of the beliefs of these cults was that there were four major stars, each ruling over one of the four cardinal points. These stars where known as "Lords" or "Watchers."

The Watcher of the East was the star Aldebaran.This star marked the time of the Vernal Equinox. The Watcher of the South was Regulus, marking the time of the Summer Solstice. Marking the Autumnal Equinox was Antares, Watcher of the West. The North Watcher was the marker of Winter Solstice, Foralhaut.

Actual towers, called Ziggurats (cosmic mountains) were built as a form of worship. Each tower bore the symbols of the Watchers. During ritual celebrations the symbols were traced in the air with torch flames or wands, and the Watchers names were called.

The Watchers were thought of as gods that guarded the heavens and earth. Lunar and Solar cults eventually replaced the Star cults.

The Watchers became the gods of the four winds to the Greeks. The Christians took them over as "guardian angels."

The Hebrews taught that all angels, known to them as Watchers, were ruled by four "higher" angels. They became the "Archangels" to the Cabalists."

http://www.oocities.org/athens/4177/watchtowers.html

"In the Book of Enoch, the Watchers (Aramaic עִירִין, iyrin) are angels dispatched to Earth to watch over the humans. They soon begin to lust for human women and, at the prodding of their leader Samyaza, defect en masse to illicitly instruct humanity and procreate among them.

[But we are not speaking of 'the Watchers' or fallen angels!]

I'm arguing the link of the Watchers and the Watch Tower Society.

"The Watch Tower is the Great Pyramid of Giza. The pyramid is associated with Freemasonry and the occult.

" 'In the 1920's, (after Russell's death) the Watchtower magazine continued to teach
that the Great Pyramid was God's Stone Witness. "The great Pyramid of Egypt,
standing as a silent and inanimate witness of the Lord, is a messenger; and its
testimony speaks with great eloquence concerning the divine plan.'
The Watchtower. 5/15/25.pg148."

The Great Pyramid of Giza was never a 'Watch Tower.' Russell's interest in this structure had nothing to do with a "Watch Tower" (as noted in the quotation of Is. 21 above) but is explained as follows:

Yes, you are right, sorry. It is considered God's witness as Russell believed it was the Bible in stone.

In 1859 an “eminently respectable Nottinghamshire Victorian� (Moffett quote) and respected London publisher, John Taylor, published his book, The Great Pyramid: Why Was It Built? And Who Built It?.

Taylor was also an earnest student of mathematics who had spent many long hours examining and analyzing the most accurate and detailed measurements then available for the Great Pyramid: Howard Vyse’s survey in 3 volumes - Operations Carried On At The Pyramids Of Giza.

Taylor’s eight-volume work claimed the Great Pyramid had been built through the inspiration of the God of the Bible. The various measurements of that pyramid were, he said, God-inspired messages to His people.

Then Dr. Charles Piazzi Smyth took over. He was

“a fellow of the Royal Society, Britain’s august high command of the sciences, [and] his father, Admiral William Henry Smyth, had been one before him. At the time the younger Smyth encountered Taylor’s theories, he was both professor of astronomy at Edinburgh University and Astronomer Royal of Scotland.� - Moffett.

Inspired by Taylor’s studies, Smyth launched into a fresh analysis of Howard Vyse’s figures. His calculations and conclusions startled the world: not only was Taylor correct, he declared, but there were many new revelations to be found!
From 1864 until 1890 (at least) Piazzi Smyth was the greatest authority on the revelations of the Great Pyramid measurements.

Others, however, also became popular in this field.

“The heyday of pyramidology was to dawn in 1924, with the publication of The Great Pyramid: Its Divine Message. This was primarily the work of an English structural engineer named David Davidson.� - Moffett, Secrets of the Pyramids Revealed.

Many intelligent, knowledgeable people around the world were convinced that the Great Pyramid had been divinely constructed to reveal Biblical truths. True, there was some argument as to which of the many different measurements being reported were the proper measurements. And there were various interpretations as to what each measurement actually represented. And there were a number of stuffy “curmudgeons� who still wouldn’t be convinced by what seemed to be overwhelming statistical proof. But “Pyramid Fever� ran high, nevertheless.

And in 1890 the respected Dr. Piazzi Smyth was the Pyramid Chronology expert!

So, when C. T. Russell began examining Dr. Smyth’s work and comparing it to his own attempts at chronology based on the Bible interpretation alone, it is no wonder he became very excited at what appeared to be an exact proportional match between the lengths of various consecutive measurements in the Pyramid and the lengths of consecutive time periods in his own Bible chronology.

As a result, in 1890, Russell’s “Pyramid� calculations and their interpretation by him were forwarded to Piazzi Smyth in England. Smyth heartily endorsed them in his Dec. 21, 1890 letter which was reproduced in Studies in the Scriptures when Russell published his Great Pyramid testimony. - see pp. 311-312, Thy Kingdom Come.

Since Russell was a Mason, how could he not see the occult references in the pyramids? Does Russell even name Jesus? Did He ever say His name? The reason why he would be interested in pyramidology is because it is important in Freemasonry.

I have no doubt that Taylor, Prof. Piazzi Smyth, and C. T. Russell (and many thousands of others) were sincere, religious persons who truly believed their interpretations of the Pyramid measurements. They were victims of statistical coincidences and multiple variables: it all honestly appeared to be mathematically precise proof - inescapably certain!

Nevertheless, Russell wrote: “IF this, indeed, prove to be a Bible in stone; IF it be a record of the secret plans of the Great Architect of the universe, displaying his foreknowledge and wisdom; it should and will be in full accord with his written word.� - pp. 317, 326, 341, Thy Kingdom Come.

Sure, Russell was mistaken, but so were numerous experts and thousands of other sincere people. He never claimed to be inspired or infallible in his writings (in fact quite the opposite).

The phrase, "Great Architect of the universe" is from Freemasonry. Why is he trying to marry Christianity with a Freemasonic god?


Arthur Edward Waite

October 2, 1857 - May 19, 1942) was a Freemason, an English occultist and member (later Grand Master) of the magical order, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. Waite is most famous as the co-creator of the Rider-Waite Tarot deck, the most popular tarot deck in use today.

“[Freemasonry] makes no profession of Christianity, and wars not against sectarian creeds or doctrines, but looks forward to the time when the labor of our ancient brethren shall be symbolized by the erection of a spiritual temple whose moral grandeur shall be commensurate with civilization; a temple in which there shall be but one altar and but one worship; one common altar of Masonry on which the Veda, Shastras, Sade, Zend-Avesta, Koran, and Holy Bible shall lie untouched by sacrilegious hands, and at whose shrine the Hindoo, the Persian, the Assyrian, the Chaldean, the Egyptian, the Chinese, the Muhammadan, the Jew, and the Christian may kneel with one united voice celebrate the praises of the Supreme Architect of the Universe.�
- THE KENTUCKY MONITOR, p. 95, Grand Lodge of Kentucky (source)

If Freemasonry is not related to Christianity, then who is the Architect of the Universe?



Domenico Margiotta 0- 33rd degree Mason has written

"Palladism is necessarily a luciferian rite. Its religion is Manichaean neo-gnostism, teaching that the divinity is dual and that lucifer is equal of Adonay, with lucifer the God of Light and Goodness struggling for humanity against Adonay the God of darkness and Evil.. Albert Pike had only specified and unveiled the dogmas of the high grades of all other masonries, for in no matter what rite, The Great architect of the Universe is not the God worshipped by Christians"

Extract from 'Masonry - beyond the light' Wm.Schnoebelen former 32nd degree Mason

https://www.christian-restoration.com/f ... quotes.htm

I do not believe Russell was innocent. His beliefs clearly align with that of Freemasonry.

I hope everyone here understands that I by no means believe JWs are Satanists. I am arguing about Russell's involvement with Freemasonry and the occult which cannot be reconciled with Christianity.

[Claire Evans]

Evangelicals often call Jehovah's Witnesses, a "cult" and not Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses, seem to consider Roman Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox etc, "not-Christian" (JWs please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Question for debate, why can't all of these groups rightly be considered "Christian"?

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

This is a comment in general for the readers. This quote is in contention:

"It's a sad fact that Satanism uses Christianity to further its purposes. Many innocent people are deceived and are none the wiser. I think the agenda is to lure people away from the gospel and get as many people on board with its agenda."

This is my context which appears to have been ambiguous:

The innocent people I am referring to are the Jehovah's Witnesses themselves who believe that the foundations are from Christians yet has actually been used for another agenda.

I by no means believe Jehovah's Witnesses are Satanists. Not at all. The JW's here are replying very politely which I respect very much.

I'm sorry that some people mistakenly believed that I was referring JW's as a
Satanists.

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 466 by Claire Evans]

The Masons themselves went over their extensive membership rolls. No Charles Taze Russell was found.

You said "we may infer." OK, but I'd sooner ask the Watchtower Society, to make sure.

The pyramids have been associated with a great number of things. The fact pyramidal-type imagery is used by a group says really nothing abut any connection to the occult.

The Masons are not worshippers of Satan. I should know. My father was a Mason and so was my grandfather, who was a Presbyterian minister.

There is absolutely no evidence the Society practices any form of "magic."

What other associations are there for pyramids that aren't related to the occult?

It is not only the pyramids that I am using for my argument. As I mentioned, followers of Russell were called "Millennial Dawnists"? Why? Can you give me your opinion on this? It's because it appears to be related to "The Golden Dawn" society where magic is practiced.

My uncle is a Mason yet he won't volunteer anything he does there. My mother has a friends who is one yet seems to not know the real deal. He thought "G" stood for "God". The ignorance has to do with this:


Quote from Albert Pike: “The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretation. It is not intended that he shall understand them, but it is intended that he shall imagine that he understands them…Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry (32nd and 33rd masons).�


As for your minister grandfather, I don't see how a Christian can be a Freemason:

Arthur Edward Waite

October 2, 1857 - May 19, 1942) was a Freemason, an English occultist and member (later Grand Master) of the magical order, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. Waite is most famous as the co-creator of the Rider-Waite Tarot deck, the most popular tarot deck in use today.

“[Freemasonry] makes no profession of Christianity, and wars not against sectarian creeds or doctrines, but looks forward to the time when the labor of our ancient brethren shall be symbolized by the erection of a spiritual temple whose moral grandeur shall be commensurate with civilization; a temple in which there shall be but one altar and but one worship; one common altar of Masonry on which the Veda, Shastras, Sade, Zend-Avesta, Koran, and Holy Bible shall lie untouched by sacrilegious hands, and at whose shrine the Hindoo, the Persian, the Assyrian, the Chaldean, the Egyptian, the Chinese, the Muhammadan, the Jew, and the Christian may kneel with one united voice celebrate the praises of the Supreme Architect of the Universe.�
- THE KENTUCKY MONITOR, p. 95, Grand Lodge of Kentucky (source)



Comments, please?

[2timothy316]

Because truth is my driving factor.

This is commendable. I believe you mean you are driven by a search for truth rather than truth drives you, for of course our ideas are a mix of truth, assumptions and falsehoods.

Then we ask ourselves the question, 'does truth even exist?' The answer is, of course there is truth. This means that it can be found. The only way if can't be found is if we let that mix of assumptions and falsehoods grind our search to a halt. Dogmatism is not accelerant to truth but a brake.

When you read the Bible you form an opinion as to what a verse can mean. When it states that the dead know nothing is this a simple platitude or a the foundation of a startling theology?

To me it's a simple statement of truth as there are several other scriptures that support Ecc 9:5, 6. To a person that is dogmatic to the doctrine of the eternal soul, more often than not these scriptures are Earth shaking. Yet, to a person that is an atheist to hear the Bible support the view that dead means dead, it's not so Earth shaking. Yet it doesn't move the an atheist's heart to do more research on the Bible or explore more into the existence of God. So the scripture is really the only thing that is unmovable. It's the fixed point so many swing around. Its the person's heart and opinion that is being revealed by the scripture. The Bible is not the problem when it comes the confusion in this world in finding truth. It's when someone says of God's Word, 'is it so'? Much like when Satan asked Eve the same question when he said, 'is it so that God said...'. So it is the same with Ecc 9:5, 6 and many other scriptures. Ex: People will ask, "is it so that the Bible said, 'the dead know nothing'"? What I say to people that ask that, 'here we go again'.

Our interpretation will depend on the people who have influenced our thought, people we trust, people we suppose to be more learned than we are or perhaps it will be formed from our own private view, biased perhaps by what we bring to the table. It is so very hard to isolate truth here.

That is why I turn back to the Bible. It's the only one that has thousands of years of wisdom in it. That is why like in the case of Ecc 9:5, 6 the only answer I ended up accepting is the Bible's explanation. Simple observation of the world around me too helped in that conclusion. Once something is dead, there is no evidence that someone is still alive. I researched for a long time those paranormal folks. Over and over again I found it was more for entertainment value than real results. Real proof that the dead weren't dead would be huge! Anytime someone has claimed such a thing, they have all been exposed as frauds or vague.

There is more to interpretation than taking something as symbolic and something as literal.

Ahhh but who told you that and is it true? Why is it true? Why have folks just simply accepted 'the Bible must be interpreted at all times'? Is that true? Why is the Bible one of the few books that people think there must be an interpretation in every word? I know of no scripture that directly says, 'personal interpretation is required to understand God's Word'. In fact is says much the opposite, that we rely on God's Word for understanding and not our own. It's because of the same reasons you stated at the beginning. Assumptions and falsehoods. People have be trained to ask of God's Word, 'is it so'? Reverse that question to a statement, 'it is so'! Took God's promise as 'it is so!' rather than Satan's 'is it so?'. Then true answers begin to present themselves and righteousness follows. Imagine if Eve had told Satan of God's command, 'it is so!'? Conversations like this one wouldn't exist.

Yet the arrogant will suffer.

The arrogant, by definition, are not in possession of truth; arrogance being a flaw. But of course those who declare that they are in possession of truth are themselves in danger of succumbing to arrogance, all unawares.

Yes, that is true. Even the Bible is contently warning of this. Yet people that posses truth and may even slip up and show arrogance are not bad people. It's the consent show of arrogance that will leave a person blind. It can even begin to reverse a person's knowledge of truth. But just because a person slips up doesn't it make them wrong in what they say. It just makes it hard to listen to them while appearing arrogant. This is were forgiveness is key and to let that person get the chance to learn humility. On the other hand, there is also the possibility that a person mistakes a person's confidence as a display of arrogance. That an excitement to show another a truth in the way of 'look what I have found' as arrogance. Anytime I have felt this way toward another person it was my own low self-confidence in what I knew, not wanting to look weak and my own pride getting in my way. The Bible suggest that we contently test our faith. So even when someone is pointing at me as missing something. I need to ask myself, 'Am I'? No matter who they are. Most of time (especially on the same issue over and over such as an eternal soul) what I find is the person making the accusation towards me is missing something. Actually not missing something, just flat out refusing to acknowledge something. Such as Ecc 9:5, 6.

I have been on all sides of this issue. The arrogant one, the one refusing to listen because of what I perceive as a person's arrogance, the humbled one, the one speaking from humility, the forgiving one and the forgiven. Without a doubt the best place to be is in a position of humility. It's the difference between a person that is soft, warm and flexible like a blanket and rough, ridged, sharp and hard like a piece of aluminum siding.

Each system of belief has its proponents firmly declaring they are right because the Bible is on their side - as well as Christ. Judge not, lest ye yourself be judged, is possibly the wisest way. Then we treat every belief system with scepticism.

Then we have to look at these statements too. Are all of these true? Is the Bible on everyone's side as well as Christ? When the Bible says 'judge not' is it talking about a person's belief system or something else? Skepticism is not a bad thing but it can turn into a crippling dogma. René Descartes, who some say is the father of skepticism, was so skeptical that he coined the saying, 'I think, therefore I am'. In other words, the only thing that he could prove existed, was real and true was his himself. Is Descartes right or does something real and true exist beyond ourselves? This is one of the most important questions a person can ask themselves. 'Am I the only one that is right?'

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Claire Evans]

Extensive investigation in to the membership rolls of the Masons reveals Charles Taze Russell was never a Mason.

Who did the extensive investigations?

There is absolutely no evidence the Society practices Enochian magic, either.

There are a few things to consider:

We can infer that the WatchTower Society got its name from the Book of Enoch's Watchers:

In the Book of Enoch, the Watchers (Aramaic עִירִין, iyrin) are angels dispatched to Earth to watch over the humans. They soon begin to lust for human women and, at the prodding of their leader Samyaza, defect en masse to illicitly instruct humanity and procreate among them.

The Watch Tower is the Great Pyramid of Giza. The pyramid is associated with Freemasonry and the occult.

"In the 1920's, (after Russell's death) the Watchtower magazine continued to teach
that the Great Pyramid was God's Stone Witness. "The great Pyramid of Egypt,
standing as a silent and inanimate witness of the Lord, is a messenger; and its
testimony speaks with great eloquence concerning the divine plan."
The Watchtower. 5/15/25.pg148."

See the video at 0:13 min. The publication refers to the Golden Age. Followers of Russel were Millennial Dawnists.



"The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (or, more commonly, the Golden Dawn) was a magical order of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, practicing a form of theurgy and spiritual development. It was possibly the single greatest influence on twentieth century western occultism. Concepts of magic and ritual that became core elements of many other traditions, including Wicca, Thelema and other forms of magical spirituality popular today, are drawn from the Golden Dawn tradition."

I want to just add my own comments to tigger's excellent post #468. He has found even more info than I have. (Did I somehow miss your answer as to who did the "intensive investigations"?)

You say "we can INFER that the Watchtower got its name from 'the Watchers" in some Enochian book." You are inferring wrong. The Watchtower got its name from 2Chronicles 20:24:

"And when Judah came toward the watch tower in the wilderness, they looked unto the multitude...." (KJV)

And, as tigger already said, Isaiah 21:8:

"And he cried, A lion: My lord, I stand continually upon the watchtower in the daytime, and I am set in my ward whole nights." (KJV)


Charles T. Russell chose the name because that is what God's people do---continually WATCH to tell people about what events are coming on the earth and what God says that we should do to deal with these things. You got it all wrong about the "watchers" in the book of Enoch. Those angels appeared on Earth before the Flood and mated with human women. The Flood destroyed their offspring, the Nephilim, and the angels went back to the spirit realm (and from henceforth were demons, which exist today).

Your accusations concerning the Great Pyramid and the occult are slanderous and misleading. Charles Russell was never involved in the occult, and his interest in the Great Pyramid was nothing more than a man's intense curiosity, which was later dismissed as irrelevant.

This is a brief portion of information from the interesting publication by Fredrick Zydek (a non-JW) entitled Charles Taze Russell/ His Life and Times/ The Man, the Millennium and the Message:

"In May of 1875, George Storrs publishes a long article entitled 'A Chronological Curiosity.' It is a review of Piazzi Smyth's work and essays on the great pyramid of Egypt. French scholar Jean Francois Champollion, who first translated, wrote and published a brief Egyptian grammar from what he learned about Egyptian hieroglyphics from the Rosetta Stone, encourages a SURGE IN ACADEMIC AND LAY INVESTIGATIONS INTO EGYPTIAN HISTORY, ARCHITECTURE, AND ITS MYSTERIOUS AND ANCIENT RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. Piazzi Smyth, a member of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, Scotland, known as the Astronomers-Royal, a renowned academician and scholar of his day, sets forth the proposition that the great pyramid on the Giza plateau is both a tomb of a past pharaoh as well as a stone witness and library which reveals the past, present and future of humanity's relationship and history with the Judaic/Christian God.

'Through an elaborate system of mathematical calculations based on the dimensions, capacities, and proportions of its outer and inner structure, he unraveled what he called a divinely inspired Christian chronicle of man's history--past and future.'

"Storrs never fully subscribes to Smyth's proposition but Charles [Russell] finds the concept irresistible. The idea that the Great Pyramid of Cheops might be the stone witness he has read and wondered about in the writings of the prophet Isaiah[19:19,20] is a theory he feels he must pursue."

I will end here for a while. There is more, and I will post it later. Suffice it to say that Champollion, the first man to decipher the Rosetta Stone, stirred up a tremendous amount of interest in Egyptian history. Piazzi Smyth, who, like Champollion, was not associated in any way with the occult, wrote about the Great Pyramid & thought that it may hold some kind of link to the God of the Bible. Charles Taze Russell became acquainted with this proposition by way of his friend George Storrs, and Charles became intrigued by the thought, esp. since he had wondered about Isaiah 19:19,20. It was purely an intellectual curiosity as to what there could be to Smyth's idea. Wouldn't YOU look into it yourself if you were living then? There was nothing occult about it. More later.

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[onewithhim]

Response to post #470 by Claire Evans:

I don't know how many times I'll have to explain this....I thought that it has already been explained. That is, your comment on spirit bodies in relation to physical bodies. Paul said (ICorinthians 15) that there are physical bodies and then there are spirit bodies. "First the physical and then afterward the spirit." He was talking about those 144,000 that are called to be co-rulers with Christ. They first are humans with physical bodies, and then when they die they are to be resurrected (changed) as spirit persons.

"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;...it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body." (ICorinth.15:42,44, NASB)

"Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." (ICorinth.15:51,52, NASB)

Paul clearly informs his anointed brothers & sisters that they will CHANGE, not have some kind of physical body infused with spirit attributes and abilities. There is nothing to indicate that Jesus had a "spirit that entered his glorified body," as you stated. A spirit that has consciousness and separates from a body at death is not taught in the Bible. The spirit that "returns to the true God" is the breath of life that God gives to every living creature. So what would that "spirit" be that "entered his [Jesus'] glorified body"?

The glorified body was actually a SPIRIT body that could materialize as some angels did in the days of Abraham and Lot. Isn't that what some angels also did in Noah's day when they materialized to have sex with human women? They had been angels---spirit persons. And they de-materialized when the Flood came.

Paul said nothing in ICorinthians in direct reference to Gnostic beliefs, as you suggest. I don't know exactly all that the Gnostics believed, but if they believed that there is only a spiritual resurrection, then they were in agreement with Paul as far as what Paul said about the anointed Christians' resurrection. He wasn't "correcting" any idea like that. He was solely describing the resurrection of the chosen ones, the co-rulers with Christ. He said that there is no flesh in the heavenly realm of the Kingdom (verse 50) and went on to say that they would all have spirit bodies, as I quoted above.

How can a glorified physical body be imperishable? How does any Scripture indicate that there are imperishable glorified physical bodies? Can you show this? To me, Paul drew a sharp line between perishable and imperishable bodies. You are combining them. What Scriptures back this up?


To answer your last questions: Jehovah's Witnesses don't "pledge allegiance" to the WTS in so many words. We say that we recognize the WTS as Jehovah's organization on Earth, but our allegiance is to Jehovah and His appointed King Christ Jesus. We don't believe, either, that the WTS can "take away salvation." Only Jehovah can do that.

[2timothy316]

To answer your last questions: Jehovah's Witnesses don't "pledge allegiance" to the WTS in so many words. We say that we recognize the WTS as Jehovah's organization on Earth, but our allegiance is to Jehovah and His appointed King Christ Jesus.

Indeed our allegiance is to Jehovah God. Those of the WTS and all JWs are in the same boat. Trying to follow the footsteps of Jesus Christ the best we can. Those of the WTS have dedicated their lives, many have sacrificed having families, secular jobs to pursue study and research contently. Not all JWs can do such a thing. Many already have responsibilities to take care of and can't spend that kind of time in research of the Bible. What we trust is that these faithful people are in pursuit of the same thing all Witnesses pursue. Truth. We trust Jehovah to support them when they are right and correct them when they are wrong. Even if it takes years to get the correction. Which is why of all the religions, Jehovah's Witnesses change their doctrines more than anyone else. They do not decide when people get the proper food at the proper time. Just that they give that spiritual food when they discover it.

People ask, 'why stay with and forgive people that have been wrong in the past?'

Because of what what is written about how we should treat our fellow flawed brothers and sisters. Consider the following scriptures.

"I...appeal to you to walk worthily of the calling with which you were called, with all humility and mildness, with patience, putting up with one another in love, earnestly endeavoring to maintain the oneness of the spirit in the uniting bond of peace." - Ephesians 4:1-3

"Continue putting up with one another and forgiving one another freely even if anyone has a cause for complaint against another. Just as Jehovah freely forgave you, you must also do the same." - Colossians 3:13

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm glad I am surrounded by people that practice these scriptures. Jehovah knows, sometimes I need people that can put up with me and my flaws.

We don't believe, either, that the WTS can "take away salvation." Only Jehovah can do that.

No they don't. To judge one not fitting of salvation would be a violation of Matthew 7:1-5. The WTS has never and never will tell anyone they have lost their salvation. If they did, then they could be given the same measure of judgement they dished out as Jesus said. So they don't. Where we are certain that false religion will be snuffed out. This means the organizations will be dismantled. The actual people in those religions will be judged individually by what is exposed in their hearts. Just like all Jehovah's Witnesses, including those of the WTS will be too. The WTS or any member of the JWs have no clue what is in people's hearts. (Jeremiah 17:10)

All being said, if the Witnesses are not the last religion standing before the end of the Great Tribulation, I will be making a B line straight to the last religion that is standing. If it is not the Jehovah's Witnesses, I just can't fathom who that would be.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to Claire Evans]

The G stands for both God, the Great Architect of the Universe, and also Geometry. The Square stands for Morality. The Compass stands for Boundaries, as well also geometry, order, architecture. That's what I was taught and that's what I find in works such as Mackey's "Revised Encyclopedia of Freemasonry," Vol. 2, 1929, p. 963.

There is Regular Freemasonry and there is Continental Freemasonry. The G probably originated in Regular Freemasonry, in the US. In the US, membership requires one profess belief in a Supreme Being. Membership is open to all religions. In European or Continental Freemasonry, this requirement is dropped, so the big G is sometimes dropped. Also, Continental Freemasonry accepts women, whereas Regular Freemasonry does not.

The Masons are not a religious order, not a religion. Hence, in "Freemasons and Religion," the United Lodge of England, Nov. 2013, wrote," Freemasonry is not a religion, nor a substitute for religion. There is no separate 'Masonic Deity,' and there is no particular name for a deity in Freemasonry."

Although three Masons, Woodman, Westcott, and Mathers, founder the Hermetic order of the Golden Dawn, that organization, now largely extinct, was not part of Freemasonry.

The Freemasons have long been the target of all sorts of far-fetched conspiracy theories, from being a Satanic cult to an order of elitists bent on world domination.