Do nonbelievers or non-theists have faith?

[KingandPriest]

In a separate thread, I suggested the following:

This is why most apologist say you need more faith to be an atheist than to believe in God

To this, an agnostic replied:

Yeah, I heard that silly slander before.. I read a book with a title like that, too.
That book was a HUGE disappointment, by the way.

Frank isn't very respected by outsiders to the faith.
Even the title of the book is messed up.

How many atheists have you EVER heard saying that they have "faith in their atheism"?

Would that be many or few?

To this I now ask:

1. Does a atheist have to proclaim faith in atheism to have faith?
2. Can a nonbeliever or non-theist have faith in anything at all?
3. When a person places money into a bank account, and then goes to a store to spend some of this money, is the action of using a debit card, check card or check book an act of faith?
4. Are generally accepted scientific theories statements of faith?

[benchwarmer]

KnP
reread this

It does not take faith or a lack of faith to believe that there is a Santa Claus, because I have direct knowledge that the depiction we see in malls and other paraphernalia is an exaggeration of a real person. I know the history of the original Saint Nicholas of which the story originated. Direct knowledge informs my decisions which in turn inform my beliefs. Since I have knowledge and proof that Santa Claus does not exist and never existed, it is easy to conclude no belief is necessary.

Now substitute Jesus for Santa Claus

It does not take faith or a lack of faith to believe that there is a Jesus Christ Son of God, because I have direct knowledge that the depiction we see in malls and other paraphernalia is an exaggeration of a real person. I know the history of the original Jesus Christ of which the story originated. Direct knowledge informs my decisions which in turn inform my beliefs. Since I have knowledge and proof that Jesus Christ Son of God does not exist and never existed, it is easy to conclude no belief is necessary.

Do you accept this substitution? If not, why not? The stories of Jesus Christ have most certainly been exaggerated at least a little. The typical image of Jesus we see in malls and other paraphernalia doesn't even depict the correct race.

This is interesting, but the difference between the two is the documented record that supports Jesus as the son of God, and by comparison there is no such record or evidence of Saint Nicholas claiming to live in the north pole or bringing gifts to children all over the world. In contrast, we have texts that record what Jesus proclaimed about himself. In addition, there are records of miracles actually being performed by Jesus, and not just attributed to Jesus.

Interesting indeed as I can find documents very easily that describe Santa Claus living at the north pole and giving gifts to children:

Santa Claus: The Magical World of Father Christmas


From the book description:

Come visit the magical world of Santa Claus! This enchanting book whisks children to the North Pole. Kids can enjoy a glimpse of Santa's house; his workshop, where all the toys are built; Elf Village; and, of course, the mailroom, where all the letters from good girls and boys get sorted. Every secret is revealed, from how Santa chooses and trains his reindeer to how his sleigh spans the globe fast enough to bring gifts to everyone in time for Christmas morn

The only real difference is that this book of stories is not proclaimed by religionists as the truth (though maybe some children might disagree!)

[KingandPriest]

[Replying to post 111 by benchwarmer]

Interesting indeed as I can find documents very easily that describe Santa Claus living at the north pole and giving gifts to children:

Santa Claus: The Magical World of Father Christmas


From the book description:

Quote:
Come visit the magical world of Santa Claus! This enchanting book whisks children to the North Pole. Kids can enjoy a glimpse of Santa's house; his workshop, where all the toys are built; Elf Village; and, of course, the mailroom, where all the letters from good girls and boys get sorted. Every secret is revealed, from how Santa chooses and trains his reindeer to how his sleigh spans the globe fast enough to bring gifts to everyone in time for Christmas morn


The only real difference is that this book of stories is not proclaimed by religionists as the truth (though maybe some children might disagree!)

Notice you can find texts talking about Santa Claus living at the north pole, not Saint Nicholas. What I wrote was about origin texts. Santa Claus is a known exaggeration and embellishment of a real person, Saint Nicholas.

There is no record of Saint Nicholas flying around the world in the 3rd or 4th century when Nicholas was known to have lived. There are accounts on the other hand of Jesus performing miracles. So the comparison is not adequate.

[Rufus21]

Are you certain that an actual detective would be embarrassed?

Yes, I am certain. I gave you the reasons. I can give you more.

Do you have a different viewpoint that you can support with evidence? Or are you just poking me with a stick?

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to post 111 by benchwarmer]

Interesting indeed as I can find documents very easily that describe Santa Claus living at the north pole and giving gifts to children:

Santa Claus: The Magical World of Father Christmas


From the book description:

Quote:
Come visit the magical world of Santa Claus! This enchanting book whisks children to the North Pole. Kids can enjoy a glimpse of Santa's house; his workshop, where all the toys are built; Elf Village; and, of course, the mailroom, where all the letters from good girls and boys get sorted. Every secret is revealed, from how Santa chooses and trains his reindeer to how his sleigh spans the globe fast enough to bring gifts to everyone in time for Christmas morn


The only real difference is that this book of stories is not proclaimed by religionists as the truth (though maybe some children might disagree!)

Notice you can find texts talking about Santa Claus living at the north pole, not Saint Nicholas.

Notice that rikuoamero said:

Now substitute Jesus for Santa Claus

You are the one that slipped in Saint Nicholas. I simply did what riku suggested and then found documents talking about what you said wasn't available.

Nice try though

[KingandPriest]

Are you certain that an actual detective would be embarrassed?

Yes, I am certain. I gave you the reasons. I can give you more.

Do you have a different viewpoint that you can support with evidence? Or are you just poking me with a stick?

Sure here is a quote from an actual law enforcement chief of police

“I am fortunate to be both J. Warner Wallace’s friend and former chief and thoroughly enjoyed reading Cold-Case Christianity. Jim is a seasoned and incredibly skillful investigator who has a real talent for uncovering the important pieces of evidence and logically linking them together to arrive at the truth. This book is a compelling investigative work paralleling the steps Jim takes while investigating a crime with the steps he has taken to reveal the truth about Christ. Cold-Case Christianity is a bright light that illuminates the truth in a persuasive and convicting style.�
Jim Herren, Chief of Police, UCLA Police Department

http://ebooks.rahnuma.org/religion/Chri ... ianity.pdf

“I have had the pleasure of working with J. Warner Wallace for the past twenty-five years, and it is what I have learned from him that I cherish the most. His brilliant work, ColdCase Christianity, provides readers with an opportunity to learn from Jim’s experiences as a cold-case detective and discover his true passion—a passion that is equally matched by his character, knowledge, and wisdom. Cold-Case Christianity has opened a new resource for all to see and displays the endless contributions Jim has made to Christianity.�

John J. Neu, Chief of Police, Torrance Police Department

http://ebooks.rahnuma.org/religion/Chri ... ianity.pdf

These individuals put there reputation on the line by acknowledging the logical process used in the book.

Now, who should we believe can provide a more accurate account for how investigators think, you or these Chief of Police?

[Rufus21]

There is no record of Saint Nicholas flying around the world in the 3rd or 4th century when Nicholas was known to have lived...There are accounts on the other hand of Jesus performing miracles. So the comparison is not adequate.

But those account were at least 40 years after Jesus died, when everyone who would have witnessed them was probably dead. We don't get any writing about Jesus until at least 20 years after his death (Paul), and they are fairly vague with no mention of anything supernatural. After 40 years (Mark) we start to hear stories about a few miracles, but still no resurrection. It isn't until 50 years after Jesus' death (Matthew, Luke) that we get the stories about resurrection, ascension, the virgin birth and more miracles. Then, after 60 years (John) we get all sorts of supernatural stories.

Doesn't it seem like the legend of Jesus developed the same way the legend of Santa Claus did?

[KingandPriest]

There is no record of Saint Nicholas flying around the world in the 3rd or 4th century when Nicholas was known to have lived...There are accounts on the other hand of Jesus performing miracles. So the comparison is not adequate.

But those account were at least 40 years after Jesus died, when everyone who would have witnessed them was probably dead. We don't get any writing about Jesus until at least 20 years after his death (Paul), and they are fairly vague with no mention of anything supernatural. After 40 years (Mark) we start to hear stories about a few miracles, but still no resurrection. It isn't until 50 years after Jesus' death (Matthew, Luke) that we get the stories about resurrection, ascension, the virgin birth and more miracles. Then, after 60 years (John) we get all sorts of supernatural stories.

Doesn't it seem like the legend of Jesus developed the same way the legend of Santa Claus did?

Correction, the records we have today were written about 40-60 years after the approximate date of Jesus' crucifixion. That does not mean this was the first thing written or the only things which were written. We know finding documents in that time period are difficult when given the opportunity to excavate freely. Between the existing unrest in the middle east, and government hindrance, many additional archaeological efforts to unearth additional texts have been prevented.

We can't find what we are not allowed to look for by existing governments. Possible sites for the location of Noah's ark cannot be explored due to government intervention.

Lets say you wanted to assert that these claims were added in after the fact a mere 40-50 years later. To make the same comparison for santa, you would have to show that there were stories about Saint Nicholas living in the north pole, flying around the world as early as 390 CE. These stories don't begin to surface until the 16th century, after the reformation, roughly 900 years later that these stories about Santa claus began to proliferate. So you are attempting to compare accounts which were copied about 40-50 years later, with stories which were told about 900 years later. Is this an adequate comparison? I think not.

[Rufus21]

Now, who should we believe can provide a more accurate account for how investigators think, you or these Chief of Police?

If the Chief of Police doesn't know the difference between eyewitness accounts and third-hand gossip, I think the choice is clear.

[Rufus21]

We can't find what we are not allowed to look for by existing governments. Possible sites for the location of Noah's ark cannot be explored due to government intervention.

There have been numerous searches for the Ark since 1876. All of them have been successful. Unfortunately, all of them were in different areas, contradicted each other and were later debunked.

"I don't know of any expedition that ever went looking for the ark and didn't find it."
-Paul Zimansky, archaeologist specializing in the Middle East at Stony Brook University

So you are attempting to compare accounts which were copied about 40-50 years later, with stories which were told about 900 years later. Is this an adequate comparison? I think not.

I think so. Legends can grow even faster than that. Menachem Mendel Schneerson was a prominent rabbi who died in 1994. By all accounts he was an amazing man who had a tremendously positive impact on the world. Within 20 years of his death he was hailed as the new messiah who would return to Earth and save the Jewish people. Some people still pray to the empty chair where he once sat, believing that he is still there.

Never underestimate the power that superstition can have on the mind.

[KingandPriest]

[Replying to post 119 by Rufus21]

[mrow]Author[mcol]Approx Date Written [mcol]Earliest Copy[mcol]Approximate Time Span between original & copy[mcol]# of Copies[mcol] Accuracy [row]Lucretius[col]53 or 55 BC [col]---[col] 1100 years[col] 2 [col] --- [row]Pliny[col] 61-113 AD [col]850 AD[col]750 years[col]7[col]--- [row]Plato[col]427-347 B.C.[col]A.D. 900[col]1200 years[col]7[col]--- [row]Demosthenes[col]4th Cent. B.C.[col]A.D. 1100[col]800 years[col]8[col]--- [row]Herodotus[col]480-425 B.C.[col]A.D. 900[col]1300 years[col]8[col]--- [row]Suetonius[col]A.D. 75-160 [col]A.D. 950[col]800 years[col]8[col]--- [row]Thucydides[col]460-400 B.C.[col]A.D. 900[col]1300 years[col]8[col]--- [row]Euripides[col]480-406 B.C. [col]A.D. 1100[col]1300 years[col]9[col]--- [row]Aristophanes[col]450-385 B.C.[col]A.D. 900 [col]1200 years[col]10[col]--- [row]Caesar[col]100-44 B.C.[col]A.D. 900 [col]1000 years[col]10[col]--- [row]Livy[col]59 BC-AD 17[col]---[col]-?-[col]20[col]--- [row]Tacitus[col]circa A.D. 100 [col] A.D. 1100[col]1000 years[col]20[col]--- [row]Aristotle[col]384-322 B.C. [col]A.D. 1100 [col]1400 years[col]49[col]--- [row]Sophocles[col]496-406 B.C. [col]A.D. 1000 [col]1400 years[col]193[col]--- [row]Homer (Iliad)[col]900 BC[col]400 BC[col]500 years[col]643[col]95% [row]New Testament[col]1st Century AD (50-100AD)[col]2nd Century AD (130 AD - 200AD)[col]less than 100 years[col]5686[col]99.5%

The more information and documentation we have, the more difficult it is for a legend to spread. Based on the amounts of documents we have been able to discover so far, the writings from Aristotle are more likely to be a legend than the New testament.