Kill an Innocent to Atone For the Wicked

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

jgh7

Kill an Innocent to Atone For the Wicked

Post #1

Post by jgh7 »

Jesus was a blameless sinless man according to the NT. How does the killing of the innocent atone for the sins of the wicked? Am I correct in saying that if Jesus had not been killed and resurrected, then God would not be in a position to forgive us of our sins?

In the real world, it is completely nonsensical to kill the innocent to atone for the wicked. On the contrary, it is probably one of the worst injustices that could occur. Where is the logic and sense in God having the most innocent of innocents killed so that He can forgive us?

DanieltheDragon
Savant
Posts: 6224
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:37 pm
Location: Charlotte
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Kill an Innocent to Atone For the Wicked

Post #2

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 1 by jgh7]

Why does an all powerful being that can create universes need to kill in order to forgive someone for behaving in the manner in which he created them? I think anyone of us here can simply forgive someone of slights by just being empathetic. Why does this God need a human sacrifice to forgive? It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever!
Post 1: Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:48 am Otseng has been banned
Otseng has been banned for having multiple accounts and impersonating a moderator.

User avatar
Tired of the Nonsense
Site Supporter
Posts: 5680
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:01 pm
Location: USA
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Kill an Innocent to Atone For the Wicked

Post #3

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

DanieltheDragon wrote: [Replying to post 1 by jgh7]

Why does an all powerful being that can create universes need to kill in order to forgive someone for behaving in the manner in which he created them? I think anyone of us here can simply forgive someone of slights by just being empathetic. Why does this God need a human sacrifice to forgive? It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever!
God created Adam and Eve and the serpent directly with His own hands. And, being fully omniscient, knew exactly what He was doing, and how His creations would turn out. He brought them together in the garden having full foreknowledge of what would occur. When it did he condemned both sides in perpetuity, so that their offspring would also bear the consequences of this great sin that God had contrived right from the beginning. But to give humankind an eventual chance at redemption, blood had to be shed. And the nature of the sin that God had contrived to occur from the very moment that Adam and Eve and the serpent were created was so great that ordinary blood would not be sufficient. It required holy blood. Why? God's plan... God's rules.

So God contrived in His plan that He should be born as a human, allowing Himself to suffer and die, shedding His own Holy blood in the process and in doing so offering humankind a chance at salvation. But only for those who choose to believe on faith that this actually occurred and was God's purpose all along. Apparently unquestioning gullibility is a virtuous quality to God.

So why couldn't God, being omnipotent, simply forgive humankind without all of the drama if He wanted to offer eternal salvation? Because in this view of God, God is a dramatically manipulative psychotic sadist who treats his creations as so many ants, alternately tormenting them and providing for them.

Oddly enough however, God, who use to be very hands on with His smiting and harsh punishments, has been amazingly quiescent for many many centuries now. No actual evidence of His existence is to be seen at all anymore. It's almost as though He never actually existed to begin with. Which is just as well, because that God, the Judaeo/Christian/Muslim God, use to be quite an ogre. In modern times the God who acts exactly like a God who never existed to begin with seems fully content to allow humans to undergo torments of their own devising.
Image "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.

User avatar
ttruscott
Site Supporter
Posts: 11064
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: West Coast of Canada
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Kill an Innocent to Atone For the Wicked

Post #4

Post by ttruscott »

jgh7 wrote:Where is the logic and sense in God having the most innocent of innocents killed so that He can forgive us?
You miss the mark - GOD did not kill Christ. HE offered His life as a sacrifice for us. Why this is the best way to achieve our repatriation to the Father, I do not know but He was a volunteer.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

User avatar
Tired of the Nonsense
Site Supporter
Posts: 5680
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:01 pm
Location: USA
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Kill an Innocent to Atone For the Wicked

Post #5

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

ttruscott wrote:
jgh7 wrote:Where is the logic and sense in God having the most innocent of innocents killed so that He can forgive us?
You miss the mark - GOD did not kill Christ. HE offered His life as a sacrifice for us. Why this is the best way to achieve our repatriation to the Father, I do not know but He was a volunteer.
Was there ever even the slightest possibility that Jesus would have opted out of this plan, in your opinion? And if the answer is no, if there was really never such a possibility on the table, in what way was Jesus ever functioning as a volunteer?
Image "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.

DanieltheDragon
Savant
Posts: 6224
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:37 pm
Location: Charlotte
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Kill an Innocent to Atone For the Wicked

Post #6

Post by DanieltheDragon »

ttruscott wrote:
jgh7 wrote:Where is the logic and sense in God having the most innocent of innocents killed so that He can forgive us?
You miss the mark - GOD did not kill Christ. HE offered His life as a sacrifice for us. Why this is the best way to achieve our repatriation to the Father, I do not know but He was a volunteer.
Why did God neeeeed Christ to volunteer as a sacrifice if he can create universes life etc. he can't forgive without blood sacrifice? Seems fishy of you ask me....
Post 1: Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:48 am Otseng has been banned
Otseng has been banned for having multiple accounts and impersonating a moderator.

User avatar
Wootah
Savant
Posts: 9325
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
Has thanked: 210 times
Been thanked: 110 times

Re: Kill an Innocent to Atone For the Wicked

Post #7

Post by Wootah »

jgh7 wrote: Jesus was a blameless sinless man according to the NT. How does the killing of the innocent atone for the sins of the wicked? Am I correct in saying that if Jesus had not been killed and resurrected, then God would not be in a position to forgive us of our sins?

In the real world, it is completely nonsensical to kill the innocent to atone for the wicked. On the contrary, it is probably one of the worst injustices that could occur. Where is the logic and sense in God having the most innocent of innocents killed so that He can forgive us?
Killing Jesus was sinful. Jesus sacrificing himself was however necessary.

In the real world when someone runs into a burning building and rescues someone else but dies in the attempt we call them heroes.

View it that way because that is closer to how Christians view it.

No Christian views it as killing innocents to save the wicked.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

Zzyzx
Site Supporter
Posts: 25089
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:38 pm
Location: Bible Belt USA
Has thanked: 40 times
Been thanked: 73 times

Re: Kill an Innocent to Atone For the Wicked

Post #8

Post by Zzyzx »

.
Wootah wrote: In the real world when someone runs into a burning building and rescues someone else but dies in the attempt we call them heroes.
If someone standing by could put out the fire (with an aerial tanker or a click of their fingers or whatever) with no one being harmed, and did not do so, what would we think of that person?
Wootah wrote: No Christian views it as killing innocents to save the wicked.
In many instances it is useful to consider the observations of disconnected parities -- that may provide insight different from those directly involved.
.
Non-Theist

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

DanieltheDragon
Savant
Posts: 6224
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:37 pm
Location: Charlotte
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Kill an Innocent to Atone For the Wicked

Post #9

Post by DanieltheDragon »

Wootah wrote:
jgh7 wrote: Jesus was a blameless sinless man according to the NT. How does the killing of the innocent atone for the sins of the wicked? Am I correct in saying that if Jesus had not been killed and resurrected, then God would not be in a position to forgive us of our sins?

In the real world, it is completely nonsensical to kill the innocent to atone for the wicked. On the contrary, it is probably one of the worst injustices that could occur. Where is the logic and sense in God having the most innocent of innocents killed so that He can forgive us?
Killing Jesus was sinful. Jesus sacrificing himself was however necessary.

In the real world when someone runs into a burning building and rescues someone else but dies in the attempt we call them heroes.

View it that way because that is closer to how Christians view it.

No Christian views it as killing innocents to save the wicked.
Slave owners view slavery as good, this doesn't make slavery good. How Christians spin the narrative to make themselves more comfortable with their beliefs doesn't change what the story says.

1. God can't forgive without the blood sacrifice of an innocent
2. God creates an innocent to sacrifice
3. The creation is sacrificed
4. The wicked are forgiven
Post 1: Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:48 am Otseng has been banned
Otseng has been banned for having multiple accounts and impersonating a moderator.

User avatar
rikuoamero
Under Probation
Posts: 6707
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:06 pm
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Kill an Innocent to Atone For the Wicked

Post #10

Post by rikuoamero »

Wootah wrote:
jgh7 wrote: Jesus was a blameless sinless man according to the NT. How does the killing of the innocent atone for the sins of the wicked? Am I correct in saying that if Jesus had not been killed and resurrected, then God would not be in a position to forgive us of our sins?

In the real world, it is completely nonsensical to kill the innocent to atone for the wicked. On the contrary, it is probably one of the worst injustices that could occur. Where is the logic and sense in God having the most innocent of innocents killed so that He can forgive us?
Killing Jesus was sinful. Jesus sacrificing himself was however necessary.

In the real world when someone runs into a burning building and rescues someone else but dies in the attempt we call them heroes.

View it that way because that is closer to how Christians view it.

No Christian views it as killing innocents to save the wicked.
Consider for a moment WHY we call that person who dies rescuing someone a 'hero'. I offer my reason; that person has just given up that which is irreplaceable, something they can never have back (their life) so someone else can live.
What happens in the Christian story? Oh right...Jesus comes back to life after a three day nap and becomes King of the universe.

Why is sacrificing Jesus necessary? In other threads, I've been told God is against human sacrifice. Yet here he REQUIRES it? Who or what demands of God 'Thou need a human sacrifice to forgive'?
Image

Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

Post Reply