Love your enemies

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Shoud we hate God's enemies?

Yes
1
14%
No
1
14%
We should not hate anyone.
5
71%
 
Total votes: 7

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Blastcat
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Love your enemies

Post #1

Post by Blastcat »

I'm looking for Bible verses that support "love thy enemies" and "Kill whoever God doesn't like today."

In the Bible, I think it was in Matthew 5:44 where it says that we should love our enemies, and in the OLD testament, there are very many passages where people kill people on the command of God.

I think there are about a dozen of those direct commandments...

So, the questions for debate is:


"Are Christians being instructed to not hate their enemies, but to hate to the point of killing whoever God considers to be an enemy?"

P.S.

I owe the idea of Christians having to hate God's enemies from Divine Insight in Post 107: Question for Atheists/Naturalist


:)

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Re: Love your enemies

Post #11

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 10 by onewithhim]
onewithhim wrote:
God told his people to clear out the pagans from the Promised Land and the Bible reports a lot of bloodshed, but there is not a command to hate them.
Oh no no no don't hate them.. just kill whoever God says... that's fine. Hating them would be bad.

Yeah, I'm catching on to Christian morality.

:)

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Re: Love your enemies

Post #12

Post by onewithhim »

Blastcat wrote: [Replying to post 10 by onewithhim]
onewithhim wrote:
God told his people to clear out the pagans from the Promised Land and the Bible reports a lot of bloodshed, but there is not a command to hate them.
Oh no no no don't hate them.. just kill whoever God says... that's fine. Hating them would be bad.

Yeah, I'm catching on to Christian morality.

:)
You said, did you not?, that there were laws commanding the Jews to hate. I was simply pointing out that God never told them to hate.

And true Christians today do not hate. Neither do they kill, because God isn't telling anybody today to kill their enemies.

:2gun: <- not true Christian

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Re: Love your enemies

Post #13

Post by Divine Insight »

bjs wrote:
Divine Insight wrote:
catnip wrote: The OT is merely background of human relationship with God and testimony for the coming of the Messiah. The NT is authoritative for those who follow Christ.

I know that some conflate the two and pick and choose between them, but that obviously misses the point.
Those who follow Christ should be killing "God's enemies" as per God's Laws in the OT".
What specific OT law(s) are you referring to?
Deuteronomy Chapter 17. Part of the jots and tittles of the prophets of old that Christ proclaimed shall not pass from law until heaven and earth pass. Deuteronomy is considered to be part of the "Mosaic Laws of the Jewish Torah". Christ was a Jew and supported the Mosaic Laws.

This would include all of the laws found in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.
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Re: Love your enemies

Post #14

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 12 by onewithhim]
onewithhim wrote:
And true Christians today do not hate. Neither do they kill, because God isn't telling anybody today to kill their enemies.

Yeah, good thing that your god isn't telling you to kill anyone these days, isn't it?

____________

Question:


  • What would you do if God himself told you to kill someone he told you was evil? Would you disobey?

____________


:smileright: :smileleft:

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Re: Love your enemies

Post #15

Post by bjs »

Divine Insight wrote: Deuteronomy Chapter 17. Part of the jots and tittles of the prophets of old that Christ proclaimed shall not pass from law until heaven and earth pass. Deuteronomy is considered to be part of the "Mosaic Laws of the Jewish Torah". Christ was a Jew and supported the Mosaic Laws.

This would include all of the laws found in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.
Setting aside your straw man version of Jesus statements about the law, in what way are Christians failing to keep Gods law? Are you suggesting that God has given modern Christians specific towns in which they are to prevent idolatry? Which towns are these?
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo

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Re: Love your enemies

Post #16

Post by Divine Insight »

bjs wrote: Setting aside your straw man version of Jesus statements about the law,
Straw man? Sorry but if you want to accuse someone of making straw man statements about Jesus and the law you'll have to call out Matthew on that one.

Matthew 5:
[17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
[18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


If you want to claim that Jesus changed the laws given by the prophets then you'll have to produce the scriptures that support your claim. Until then you are in no position to be calling the observations of others that CAN be backed up by scriptures "Straw Man".

In fact, this is precisely the kind of denial we get from theists all the time. I point out what's actually in the scriptures, and you accuse me of making up "Straw man" stuff.
bjs wrote: in what way are Christians failing to keep Gods law? Are you suggesting that God has given modern Christians specific towns in which they are to prevent idolatry? Which towns are these?
He didn't state any specific towns. In fact, Deuteronomy states: "If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee".

If you are a Christian surely you believe that God has created the entire world and therefore any gates that you have chosen to live within have been given to you by the LORD.

So if any heathens come into any town that you call "Home" preaching of other Gods that would qualify. It's up to you to keep your town Holy unto God.

Caveat: You may personally wave off this interpretation because you don't personally care for this commandment of your LORD thy God. But that's totally irrelevant. Christians argue among themselves all the time. The only point I need to demonstrate is that there are interpretations that can be argued for via these Biblical scriptures. Therefore all we need to do is find ONE CHRISTIAN who sees this as a valid interpretation and there is absolutely nothing you could do to argue against him or her other than to proclaim your own subjective opinion that you don't think they have it right.

You certainly can't argue on any grounds that you don't think this would be very "Good". Because you're not supposed to be able to say what's Good or Bad. Only God can say that, and clearly God had ordered men to kill heathens and preachers of other Gods if they come into their town. One could also argue that the scriptures state clearly that God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow to support the argument that if God saw this as being GOOD at any time, then it must be GOOD all the time. :D

So even if you personally reject this interpretation that wouldn't mean a thing. All that would amount to is your own personal subjective opinion. It wouldn't be the WORD OF GOD.

Clearly the Bible shows that God commanded men to kill those who worship other Gods, and even the Moon, or Sun, etc.

Deut. 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;

As far as I can see this God wants all these people to be killed if they come into the gates of YOUR "God-Given" TOWN.

Thank GOODNESS I'm not a Christian! :D

But my point is that you could not argue against any "Christian" who interprets the Bible in this way other than to object that you personally don't like his or her interpretation. That's all you could do.
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Re: Love your enemies

Post #17

Post by bjs »

Divine Insight wrote:
bjs wrote: in what way are Christians failing to keep Gods law? Are you suggesting that God has given modern Christians specific towns in which they are to prevent idolatry? Which towns are these?
He didn't state any specific towns. In fact, Deuteronomy states: "If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee".

If you are a Christian surely you believe that God has created the entire world and therefore any gates that you have chosen to live within have been given to you by the LORD.

So if any heathens come into any town that you call "Home" preaching of other Gods that would qualify. It's up to you to keep your town Holy unto God.


Is there a reason you cut a sentence in half instead of quoting the entire sentence? This seems like a rather extreme version of taking something out of context.



The full sentence from Deuteronomy 17:2-5:
If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant, 3 and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars in the sky, and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death.



The passage explicitly contradicts your idea that this is for the entire world. So, if you believe that this is a command for modern Christians then I must ask again: Which town is it that you believe God has given to modern Christians?
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Re: Love your enemies

Post #18

Post by onewithhim »

Divine Insight wrote:
bjs wrote:
Divine Insight wrote:
catnip wrote: The OT is merely background of human relationship with God and testimony for the coming of the Messiah. The NT is authoritative for those who follow Christ.

I know that some conflate the two and pick and choose between them, but that obviously misses the point.
Those who follow Christ should be killing "God's enemies" as per God's Laws in the OT".
What specific OT law(s) are you referring to?
Deuteronomy Chapter 17. Part of the jots and tittles of the prophets of old that Christ proclaimed shall not pass from law until heaven and earth pass. Deuteronomy is considered to be part of the "Mosaic Laws of the Jewish Torah". Christ was a Jew and supported the Mosaic Laws.

This would include all of the laws found in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.
You were asked what specific laws in the Mosaic Law commanded the Jews to hate their enemies? Can you point them out? As I said, I can't find any.


:-|

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Post #19

Post by agnosticatheist »

onewithhim wrote:
Divine Insight wrote:
bjs wrote:
Divine Insight wrote:
catnip wrote: The OT is merely background of human relationship with God and testimony for the coming of the Messiah. The NT is authoritative for those who follow Christ.

I know that some conflate the two and pick and choose between them, but that obviously misses the point.
Those who follow Christ should be killing "God's enemies" as per God's Laws in the OT".
What specific OT law(s) are you referring to?
Deuteronomy Chapter 17. Part of the jots and tittles of the prophets of old that Christ proclaimed shall not pass from law until heaven and earth pass. Deuteronomy is considered to be part of the "Mosaic Laws of the Jewish Torah". Christ was a Jew and supported the Mosaic Laws.

This would include all of the laws found in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.
You were asked what specific laws in the Mosaic Law commanded the Jews to hate their enemies? Can you point them out? As I said, I can't find any.


:-|
No, bjs asked divine insight what specific laws about killing God's enemies divine insight was referring to. You may have asked DI what specific laws commanded the jews to hate their enemies, but that isnt in the quote nest in your post that I quoted in this post.
If it turns out there are one or more gods, then so be it.

If it turns out there are no gods, then thank reality that no one is going to suffer forever.

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Re: Love your enemies

Post #20

Post by Divine Insight »

bjs wrote: The full sentence from Deuteronomy 17:2-5:
If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant, 3 and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars in the sky, and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death.



The passage explicitly contradicts your idea that this is for the entire world. So, if you believe that this is a command for modern Christians then I must ask again: Which town is it that you believe God has given to modern Christians?
I simply disagree with your objections. The first sentences clearly states:

"If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you"

And besides, your argument fails anyway unless you are supporting that this commandment should still be followed in any specific town or place. Are you trying to argue that this commandment should only be carried out in Israel but nowhere else?

Also, if you believe that the LORD only gave you towns in Israel and you're not living in one of those towns then why is that? Shouldn't you think about moving to the towns you believe your LORD gave you?
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