What is God responsible for?

[Willum]

Many things were done in God's name:
But what is he responsible for?

When the Catholic Nazi Germany attempts a genocide, a man is blamed.
When Hebrews commit genocide on the Canaan, it is his will.

We have plagues, on Catholic countries, for example. The Dark Ages were committed in Yahweh's name. Were they?

Why would Yahweh plunge the civilization of Rome, with health, farming and sanitation, back into the primitive squalor of ancient Jerusalem, if so?

If not, why did he not stop such a terror? It seems to be in His purview.

How does one determine if an act is done in God's will, or men's will?
Does the Bible tell us?

Understanding that free will is a constraint - we can also understand that mob's and large numbers of people lose free will, does this fall into God's purview, then?

In short, how does one know what God is responsible for;
Any group decision?
A decision influenced by prayer?

The position is that presented by Romans 13:

Obey the rulers who have authority over you. Only God can give authority to anyone, and he puts these rulers in their places of power. 2 People who oppose the authorities are opposing what God has done, and they will be punished. 3 Rulers are a threat to evil people, not to good people. There is no need to be afraid of the authorities. Just do right, and they will praise you for it. 4 After all, they are God’s servants, and it is their duty to help you.

The position of the OP is: those atrocities committed by governments, God's will, and he is responsible for them.

[bjs]

We have plagues, on Catholic countries, for example. The Dark Ages were committed in Yahweh's name. Were they?

Why would Yahweh plunge the civilization of Rome, with health, farming and sanitation, back into the primitive squalor of ancient Jerusalem, if so?

I know that this isn’t the main point of your thread, but you have a widely inaccurate view of the Middle Ages (sometimes wrongly called the Dark Ages). The fall of the Roman Empire followed by the onset of the Bubonic plague did make for a difficult time in Europe. However, “health, farming and sanitation� were not set back to the time of “ancient Jerusalem.�

In reality there were major advances in nearly every area of life, from science to art to sanitation to construction. The heavy plow, created during the Middle Ages, was probably the most important advancement in farming until the creation of the internal combustion engine.


http://listverse.com/2007/09/22/top-10- ... ddle-ages/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_technology

http://www.thefinertimes.com/Middle-Age ... -ages.html

[marco]

The position is that presented by Romans 13:

Obey the rulers who have authority over you. Only God can give authority to anyone, and he puts these rulers in their places of power. 2 People who oppose the authorities are opposing what God has done, and they will be punished. 3 Rulers are a threat to evil people, not to good people. There is no need to be afraid of the authorities. Just do right, and they will praise you for it. 4 After all, they are God’s servants, and it is their duty to help you.

This would suggest that folk should tolerate evil dictators like Stalin; that it was wrong to try to get rid of Hitler. But to be fair to God, Paul isn't his best emissary. As he said himself, he looks at things through a dirty glass, so is bound to get a poor view of life.

What is God responsible for? Sparrows falling out of their nests? Or perhaps he simply notes these incidents, for whatever purpose. When we rely on holy men to tell us the answer, we don't get useful answers. God seems unwilling to specify his remit. We must assume, then, that he's not interested, else we'd have the information written on the sides of tall buildings.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 2 by bjs]

The exception to the barbarism of the Middle Ages, since you insist, proves the rule.

(Listverse is historically inaccurate, and re-inventing technologies that were lost under Yahwey's revolution, such as iron, don't count.)

Your comments are indeed off-topic. Unless you are citing Yahwey as their progenitor, instead of the destructor prior civilization's advancements.

[Replying to post 3 by marco]

I don't think anyone one on the forum is in a position to discount any book of the Bible. Translators knew Hebrew, Geek and Latin, I presume, far better than any of us.
Interpretations of sections? Allowable, discounting Authors, seems a little transcendental for the topic - is God responsible for the authors who presented wrong information?...

That is clearly dividing by zero.
V/R

[bjs]

[Replying to Willum]

The way that you are using the idea of an “exception that prove the rule� is a fallacy.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Exception_ ... s_the_rule

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception ... s_the_rule

You have presented an inaccurate view of the Middle Ages and handwaved away considerable evidence that contradicts your view.

I understand that this not your main point, but if you are going to use an example then please use a historically accurate one.

[ttruscott]

The position of the OP is: those atrocities committed by governments, God's will, and he is responsible for them.

Agreed. imCo, HE is responsible for all suffering and death and for all joy in our lives according to HIS purpose of using life as the method to separate HIS sinful elect from the eternally evil reprobate by lesser, not final, judgements against the wicked and painful discipline against HIS sinful but legitimate children.

HE is not responsible for sinners being the way they are because their evil was self chosen by their free will.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 6 by ttruscott]
On what basis do you have this opinion?

[Replying to bjs]

No, your attempt to misdirect the topic simply didn't impress me. Re-enforcing the diversion from the topic a second time impresses even less.

You obviously understand the topic, regardless. Address it instead of spoiling it with an unimportant tangent. If necessary I'll concede your point of order. Mankind didn't halt it's progress entirely.

Now, where does man's responsibility end and God's begin?

[onewithhim]

Many things were done in God's name:
But what is he responsible for?

When the Catholic Nazi Germany attempts a genocide, a man is blamed.
When Hebrews commit genocide on the Canaan, it is his will.

We have plagues, on Catholic countries, for example. The Dark Ages were committed in Yahweh's name. Were they?

Why would Yahweh plunge the civilization of Rome, with health, farming and sanitation, back into the primitive squalor of ancient Jerusalem, if so?

If not, why did he not stop such a terror? It seems to be in His purview.

How does one determine if an act is done in God's will, or men's will?
Does the Bible tell us?

Understanding that free will is a constraint - we can also understand that mob's and large numbers of people lose free will, does this fall into God's purview, then?

In short, how does one know what God is responsible for;
Any group decision?
A decision influenced by prayer?

The position is that presented by Romans 13:

Obey the rulers who have authority over you. Only God can give authority to anyone, and he puts these rulers in their places of power. 2 People who oppose the authorities are opposing what God has done, and they will be punished. 3 Rulers are a threat to evil people, not to good people. There is no need to be afraid of the authorities. Just do right, and they will praise you for it. 4 After all, they are God’s servants, and it is their duty to help you.

The position of the OP is: those atrocities committed by governments, God's will, and he is responsible for them.

First of all, the Bible says that humans "have acted ruinously on their own part; they are not his children, the defect is their own. A generation crooked and twisted!" (Deuteronomy 32:5) The blame is squarely on the shoulders of humans.

Hitler deserves the blame for millions of people being murdered. God does not deserve any reproach for leading the Israelites from Egypt to the Promised Land. The plan was to have His people live in a beautiful land of plenty, free of any unrighteous, ruinous, destructive, pernicious influences that the pagan, child-sacrificing Canaanites would present. I find it heartening that the people in the cities that the Israelites confronted were given a warning to submit or be conquered. They could choose to obey the true God or fight against Him. Interestingly, only one group of people decided to submit to Jehovah (the Gibeonites), and also the family of Rahab in Jericho.

The Dark Ages were brought about solely by humans, in opposition to Jehovah. The Church that was supposed to be representing Him turned European life on its head. This Church did everything the opposite of what God would have wanted them to do. Sure, they said that God was leading them, but that was not true. The Church has done so many terrible things in the name of God.

I don't know what you mean by God plunging the advancement of Rome into the squalor of Jerusalem.

Jehovah, God Almighty, has let man do what man wants to do. How many times did mankind outright dismiss Him from their lives, wanting to run their own shows? Adam was the first, by deliberately disobeying his Creator, thus showing that he wanted to decide for himself what was good and bad. Then Israel whined in the wilderness that they wanted a human king to be over them instead of Jehovah. Men have wanted desperately to be free of God's influence, and we see the result of this today.

Jehovah agreed to allow humans to show whether or not they truly love Him, by allowing Satan to do what he will to distract them from the truth about Him. Satan challenged God to let him....and he, Satan, would prove that humans would curse Him to His face if He allowed them to suffer hard times. (Job 2:4,5)

That is why Jehovah hasn't stepped in to rid the earth (yet) of suffering. He is letting humans make their choice as to whether or not they will love Him in spite of hardships, as well as taking into consideration the free will of humans who want to run their own lives independent of Him. The awesome truth is that He IS going to stop all of the terrors that plague this world. We have to learn to wait on Him. He has told us, in the Bible, approximately when He is going to do this. We believe that we are living now in the "last days."

The Bible does give us the wisdom (with the help of God's Spirit) to know what is right and what is wrong. If something goes against His laws and principles, it is most certainly wrong, no matter how the people make excuses for their ungodly actions.

I don't think that it is true that individuals in a mob "lose their free will." They have chosen to be in the mob in the first place, or they would be at home minding their own business.

God does not, in these later days, Himself place rulers of countries in their positions. Romans 13 lets us know that He allows these leaders of countries to exist in their positions, because they all (most of them anyway) provide certain things that people need, such as police protection, roads, a measure of order.....or there would be chaos everywhere. He shows His mercy and care by allowing these governments to function, usually with laws that benefit their citizens. (If a government does not take care of its citizens, it is on their own heads, and they will be adversely judged by Jehovah and His Son.)


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[dio9]

God is responsible for about 95% of what is done n his name. God's passion is completed in the sympathy of men. God and Man together do it.

[Willum]

[Replying to onewithhim]
Thank you for the reply, but it did not help me understand what terrestrial things God is responsible for. Why is one genocide empowered by God good, and another bad? How does one know which is which?

[Replying to post 9 by dio9]

Is there some scripture that helps us determine when acts are in God's area of responsibility, and those that are man's?