Love your enemies

[Blastcat]

I'm looking for Bible verses that support "love thy enemies" and "Kill whoever God doesn't like today."

In the Bible, I think it was in Matthew 5:44 where it says that we should love our enemies, and in the OLD testament, there are very many passages where people kill people on the command of God.

I think there are about a dozen of those direct commandments...

So, the questions for debate is:


"Are Christians being instructed to not hate their enemies, but to hate to the point of killing whoever God considers to be an enemy?"

P.S.

I owe the idea of Christians having to hate God's enemies from Divine Insight in Post 107: Question for Atheists/Naturalist

[benchwarmer]

If I just kill a man for the heck of it because we don't get along, or I kill a man because he is going to harm my children, would I be justified in either case?

Yes, in my opinion you would be justified in the second case (self defense of your children). That was not really my main question though.

If your question is,
" Are Christians being instructed to not hate their enemies, but to hate to the point of killing whoever God considers to be an enemy," as stated in the OP, then I believe motive is everything.

Also not my question.

This was my question(s):

Would you kill someone if God asked it? Would you even believe it was God asking?

A more realistic question would be, do you think God is okay with those who defend themselves? Would God ask me to do such a thing? Yes!

I didn't ask about defending yourself or your children, I already conceded in my first response that this is understandable. My question is about God asking you to go in and kill someone that is supposedly doing bad things. i.e. you haven't witnessed the crimes, you're simply being asked to go kill someone under God's direct orders.

I would seriously doubt that it was God talking to me if I were being asked to kill someone else for any reason. If God created this world, surely He can do the killing Himself or otherwise come up with a better solution.

He did, but apparently some didn't get the memo. Love your neighbor as yourself. Now, if everyone did that, we would have no need for killing anywhere!

I agree, but this is not the point of my original questions.

I understand that sometimes we are required to kill in self defense of ourselves or others, but that is not a direct command from God.

It isn't? How can you be so sure that God wasn't protecting His people in the OT, by sending His people to seize the land of those who would hurt them? What happened when they acted on their own apart from God, was He pleased?

My point is why does God need us to step in to begin with? If He is aware of the issue, why ask us to march in and fix it for Him? The Bible is full of stories where he fixed the 'problem' Himself. He apparently flooded the planet, razed rebellious cities, and killed the first born children of Egypt yet he can't deal with those sacrificing their children? Why not? Did He become impotent all of a sudden or are the stories maybe just stories after all?

I believe God was protecting His people, and when His people went to war on their own, without His consent...it didn't fare well for his people.

Sure, but my main point is why would God ask any of his people to go to war in the first place?

Being given the right to protect yourself and your loved ones is not the same as being tasked with going into a foreign land to wipe out people because apparently they are doing bad things.

It might make more sense if He simply said "If you see someone about to sacrifice a child, you have my blessing to kill the sacrificer to save the child". In other words, if you witness a crime, feel free to step in to protect the innocent. This is far different than "go into that land and wipe them out without having seen them actually commit a crime first".

Always a pleasure BW...I am not sure how you warm benches, but you do warm my heart!

Well I use my tushy to warm benches and hopefully my friendly conversation to warm your heart. Always a pleasure Peds!

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 41 by benchwarmer]

Sure, but my main point is why would God ask any of his people to go to war in the first place?

Being given the right to protect yourself and your loved ones is not the same as being tasked with going into a foreign land to wipe out people because apparently they are doing bad things.

It might make more sense if He simply said "If you see someone about to sacrifice a child, you have my blessing to kill the sacrificer to save the child". In other words, if you witness a crime, feel free to step in to protect the innocent. This is far different than "go into that land and wipe them out without having seen them actually commit a crime first".

Hello Benchwarmer!! It is so good to hear from you this morning (my morning)!

I apologize profusely for avoiding any question that you had asked, as that was not my intent. I did answer the question of whether God would ask me to kill to BC, so I will spare you the answer again. I have not been on the forum as much as I would like, as there are many things that require my attention. Sigh...I need focus...and maybe a great editor!

The thing about God, is that He is all knowing. He knows how exactly how things are going to work out. Suppose, that God knew beforehand, that these people would eventually sacrifice His children. Suppose, He also knew, that His people would eventually end up being okay with all that. I am merely speculating, but would He not be protecting His children? I suppose God could have wiped all the people out himself, as He did in Sodom and Gomorrah, but then the Israelites wouldn't have been vested in the journey. It was a lesson of obedience and trust, which they struggled with greatly (I do too at times). It was a lesson not just for the people of the current time, but for people of all time.

Thanks for response BW! You are a lovely person...bench and all!

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 42 by Peds nurse]





[center]All God wants for Xmas is obedience and trust from us
Part One[/center]

The thing about God, is that He is all knowing. He knows how exactly how things are going to work out.

So any wrongdoing should not come as a surprise...

Didn't he know in advance that humans were just going to do a whole lot of FAILING, when he created all of dat?

Isn't that setting up for FAILURE from the get go?

[Peds nurse]

[center]All God wants for Xmas is obedience and trust from us
Part One[/center]

The thing about God, is that He is all knowing. He knows how exactly how things are going to work out.

So any wrongdoing should not come as a surprise...

Hello BC!!
I don't think God is surprised by our behavior. How could He be, when He created us?

Didn't he know in advance that humans were just going to do a whole lot of FAILING, when he created all of dat?

Isn't that setting up for FAILURE from the get go?

I absolutely believe that God knew in advance exactly what was going to happen, and how we would be disobedient. This is why from long ago, He knew He was going to send His Son, which was predicted in the OT. The world would be saved through Him.
A perfect plan, for a not so perfect people. That to me is the very definition of love. You know the relationship will be difficult, but you choose to enter into it anyway, because the person (or in this case, the people) are totally worth it!

[McCulloch]

He doesn't tell anyone TODAY to kill. All wars now are totally man-made. No military commander now gets instructions from God, like Moses and Joshua did.

How do you know this? There are military commanders now who claim just the opposite.

[JehovahsWitness]

He doesn't tell anyone TODAY to kill. All wars now are totally man-made. No military commander now gets instructions from God, like Moses and Joshua did.

How do you know this? There are military commanders now who claim just the opposite.

Jesus gave specific instructions to his followers

- Christians were to love (even their "enemies")
- Jesus indicated that even using the noblest of causes (defending the innocent) was not a reason to resort to killing or violence
- Obedience to secular authorities has to be relative for true Christians since military service is incompatible with the Christian calling.

JW


Early Christians
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 183#788183

Jehovah's Witnesses
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 346#799346

[onewithhim]

[center]All God wants for Xmas is obedience and trust from us
Part One[/center]

The thing about God, is that He is all knowing. He knows how exactly how things are going to work out.

So any wrongdoing should not come as a surprise...

Hello BC!!
I don't think God is surprised by our behavior. How could He be, when He created us?

Didn't he know in advance that humans were just going to do a whole lot of FAILING, when he created all of dat?

Isn't that setting up for FAILURE from the get go?

I absolutely believe that God knew in advance exactly what was going to happen, and how we would be disobedient. This is why from long ago, He knew He was going to send His Son, which was predicted in the OT. The world would be saved through Him.
A perfect plan, for a not so perfect people. That to me is the very definition of love. You know the relationship will be difficult, but you choose to enter into it anyway, because the person (or in this case, the people) are totally worth it!

I personally don't believe for a second that God fore-knew everything that was bound to happen. He has the ability to know everything, but that doesn't mean that he chooses to exercise that ability at all times. People might know how to ride a bike or juggle, but do they choose to do those things all the time? Come on, now. How boring it would be for Jehovah, if he chose to know everything all the time! If he knew Adam would rebel, why would He have given Adam and Eve a CHOICE? Does God like playing games? I don't believe he does.

[onewithhim]

He doesn't tell anyone TODAY to kill. All wars now are totally man-made. No military commander now gets instructions from God, like Moses and Joshua did.

How do you know this? There are military commanders now who claim just the opposite.

Do you really think military commanders communicate directly with God? Are you aware of what war is like? Have you apprised yourself with the information about what BLUNDERS there are in every war that man has fought since Christ was on Earth? Really, if God was directing any army, would there be blunders at all (if they obeyed Him)?

Indeed, the Bible tells us that Christ is against all of the governmental heads of the earth and their armies, because they do not take Jehovah---the Most High over all the earth (Psalm 83:18, KJV)---into account at all.

Revelation 19:11-21 tells the story.

"From his mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it he may strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; and he treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty....Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, 'Come, assemble for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of [military] commanders and the flesh of mighty men'....And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth AND THEIR ARMIES assembled to make war against him who sat on the horse and against his army....And all the birds were filled with their flesh." (Rev.19:15,17-19,21, NASB)

This describes Armageddon and what will happen to the man-made governments of Earth, and their armies. No commanders of armies today get any direct guidance from God. They don't even obey the commands of the Bible.


:2gun: <- not of God

[benchwarmer]

I apologize profusely for avoiding any question that you had asked, as that was not my intent. I did answer the question of whether God would ask me to kill to BC, so I will spare you the answer again. I have not been on the forum as much as I would like, as there are many things that require my attention. Sigh...I need focus...and maybe a great editor!

No worries Peds, it's hard to keep track of everything going on in these forums.

The thing about God, is that He is all knowing. He knows how exactly how things are going to work out. Suppose, that God knew beforehand, that these people would eventually sacrifice His children. Suppose, He also knew, that His people would eventually end up being okay with all that. I am merely speculating, but would He not be protecting His children? I suppose God could have wiped all the people out himself, as He did in Sodom and Gomorrah, but then the Israelites wouldn't have been vested in the journey. It was a lesson of obedience and trust, which they struggled with greatly (I do too at times). It was a lesson not just for the people of the current time, but for people of all time.

Sorry Peds, I don't follow the logic here. How would having one of us kill some one else give us a 'vested interest' in anything? Taking a life would be an absolute horror to me. I would do it if I had to in order to protect myself and my loved ones, but I sure wouldn't take orders from anyone (including 'God') and go do it.

I just don't see the point. My guess would be that if there is really a loving God He would never ask us to kill someone else. He may allow it (i.e. not punish us for doing it) under certain circumstances, but asking us to do it? That seems like a God I wouldn't want to follow. A god that wants us to do the dirty work and keep his hands clean.

[Peds nurse]

[center]All God wants for Xmas is obedience and trust from us
Part One[/center]

The thing about God, is that He is all knowing. He knows how exactly how things are going to work out.

So any wrongdoing should not come as a surprise...

Hello BC!!
I don't think God is surprised by our behavior. How could He be, when He created us?

Didn't he know in advance that humans were just going to do a whole lot of FAILING, when he created all of dat?

Isn't that setting up for FAILURE from the get go?

I absolutely believe that God knew in advance exactly what was going to happen, and how we would be disobedient. This is why from long ago, He knew He was going to send His Son, which was predicted in the OT. The world would be saved through Him.
A perfect plan, for a not so perfect people. That to me is the very definition of love. You know the relationship will be difficult, but you choose to enter into it anyway, because the person (or in this case, the people) are totally worth it!

I personally don't believe for a second that God fore-knew everything that was bound to happen. He has the ability to know everything, but that doesn't mean that he chooses to exercise that ability at all times. People might know how to ride a bike or juggle, but do they choose to do those things all the time? Come on, now. How boring it would be for Jehovah, if he chose to know everything all the time! If he knew Adam would rebel, why would He have given Adam and Eve a CHOICE? Does God like playing games? I don't believe he does.

Hey OWH!! How ya doing?

I believe He does know exactly everything at all times. Can you imagine that God watches over me, but not you at the same time? If He knows the numbers of hair on our head, what we utter before we utter it, and if He knew us in our mother's womb, in addition to hearing every prayer, and every deed we do, either good or bad, I would say that He is very attentive to what is going on all the time. He doesn't sleep. As for Adam and Eve, I believe He did know exactly what they were going to do. They were going to rebel, and from the beginning of time, his plan to have a people united to himself was in motion.