Was Jesus and Paul wrong about the Second Coming?

[polonius]

Matt 24:34 Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

Matt 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matt 26:64 Jesus said to him in reply, You have said so.[a] But I tell you: From now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.

1Thes 4:15-17 Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 125 by Elijah John]
Three interpretations

the word "Generation also has a few other 'meanings which one has to read
the context of the Bible to find out which meaning the word 'generation' means. Here are three meanings of generation put into ways to describe how the word 'generation' is to be taken.

1

-About 40 years
-Average age of first time fathers
-Time between generations in genealogy
Agrees totally with Bible's usage: Lk 17:25
To Greeks, generation was 30-33 years
(Herodotus 2:142; Heraclius Ch 11)
2

-Generation refers to the entire "race" of Jews
Where does Bible use the word this way
"This race is a wicked race?" Lk 11:29
3

-"This generation" In Mt 24:34 refers to some
distant future 40 year period, (ie.1990's-2000's)
Jesus' hearers did see signs & did flee city!
Why apply it to any other generation?


the third explanation is the one that is the most relevant to the interpretation of 'end times, and how Jesus meant it.

The generation that is most important is the one that is the generation that has seen the statehood of Israel, in 1948...for this is, to believing Christians, the KEY that starts the generation that will see the end times as well as the rapture. We already are in the 'time of sorrows" which is the precurser of the Rapture, and Tribulation.

Definition of generation
1
a : a body of living beings constituting a single step in the line of descent from an ancestor
b : a group of individuals born and living contemporaneously
c : a group of individuals having contemporaneously a status (as that of students in a school) which each one holds only for a limited period
d : a type or class of objects usually developed from an earlier type <first of the new generation of powerful supersonic fighters " Kenneth Koyen>

2
a : the action or process of producing offspring : procreation
b : the process of coming or bringing into being <generation of income>
c : origination by a generating process : production; especially : formation of a geometric figure by motion of another

3
: the average span of time between the birth of parents and that of their offspring

The word generation has a very specific meaning. Reinterpreting the word generation to mean something that occurs over the course of thousands of years represents a complete corruption of the meaning of the word.

[Lioness777]

[Replying to polonius.advice]

RESPONSE: Jesus was perfectly clear about what generation he was referring to.

Matthew 16:28
8 \"Truly I tell you, [b:bba12345dc]there are some standing here[/b:bba12345dc] who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.�

[u:bba12345dc]Obviously those who were standing there were living in Jesus\'s generation.[/u:bba12345dc]

But for those who cannot accept that Jesus was in error, it\'s necessary to use their imaginations to come up with some explanation in which Jesus didn\'t [b:bba12345dc]really mean exactly what he said.[/b:bba12345dc]

They have to try to use the Rapture story (is that anywhere in the New Testament?) Or they ignore what Jesus said and try to somehow claim the statehood of Israel is being referred to.

But those using common sense and observing what Jesus actually said know otherwise!


Jesus may have been perfectly clear on what he was talking about, but those that were listening to Him had still no clue. Jesus had his hands full trying to get thru to them that He was God, and the Son of God. He also had His hand's full teaching these people as those that are ministering his teaching have now, trying to open blind eyes...

Jesus was talking about the end times of now adays, but those listening to Him didn't understand that, and mistakenly thought He was talking about their times. Well obviously He wasn't ....and now these 'signs' are only too prevalent. Israel that we know today has changed and has become a state, where upon Isreal as we know today was NOT of Jesus's time...

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 139 by Lioness777]

-"This generation" In Mt 24:34 refers to some
distant future 40 year period, (ie.1990's-2000's)
Jesus' hearers did see signs & did flee city!
Why apply it to any other generation?

Because Jesus does not apply it the way you have here.

Your view is commonly held, but does not stand up to scrutiny.

If he had meant it the way you have described, he would have said "that generation".

He didn't say that because he didn't mean that.

He said "this generation".

Meaning present tense, to include those then alive. And yet, there is more. He goes right on to say they "will not pass away until all these things are fulfilled". That has not yet happened.

So we have him saying "this generation" is one that existed then and will continue in some form until his return.

It is a mystery that is quite solvable, however.

He uses the term elsewhere several times, and each time he clearly refers to those he had encountered, or knew of.

Putting all those references together is the only way to grasp how he always used the term "this generation".

It incorporates far more people, and covers far more time, than we have imagined.

[Monta]

[Replying to Checkpoint]


"He said "this generation".

Meaning present tense, to include those then alive. And yet, there is more. He goes right on to say they "will not pass away until all these things are fulfilled". That has not yet happened."

What are those things which were supposed to be fullfilled but were not; or were they, or... What is the end argument here.

[polonius]

Matthew 16:28
"Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

Note: Those standing here are in Jesus's generation, not some future generation.

[polonius]

Can anyone cite where the term "Rapture" is found in the Old or New Testament?

Is any mention of a "Rapture" be found before 1830?

Or is it a modern biblical fiction? Who thought it up?

[Elijah John]

What are those things which were supposed to be fullfilled but were not; or were they, or... What is the end argument here.

Good question. The things which were supposed to be fullfilled were:

For the son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay everyone for what they have done.

(Matthew 16.27)

Sure sounds like the 2nd coming to me.

Jesus said in the next verse that

some standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

(Matthew 16.28)

Well, the disciples all died, and Jesus has not come back...yet.

[Checkpoint]

Can anyone cite where the term "Rapture" is found in the Old or New Testament?

Is any mention of a "Rapture" be found before 1830?

Or is it a modern biblical fiction? Who thought it up?

The term "raptured" is not found in the Bible.

It is a modern word that was probably coined by Darby or Scofield.

However, it is derived from a word in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, usually translated as "caught up" or "caught away".

From the Coffman Commentary:

Caught up in the clouds ... "The Greek word for caught up' is rendered as "raplemur" in the Vulgate and other Latin versions, whence the event is sometimes called the rapture,' or snatching away of the saints."[33]

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 134 by Checkpoint]

Interesting, but what is your evidence Jesus was using the word "generation" in the very broadest Biblical sense?

Especially in light of Matthew 16.27,28 when Jesus said "some standing here will not taste death" until Jesus 2nd coming.

My evidence is that each time he used "generation" he did so the way I have stated, and not in the narrow sense limited to a time period of less than a century.

This can clearly be seen from the verse I quoted, Luke 16:8, which establishes his thinking and usage on this matter.

In that verse he talks of two generations, which he calls "the children of this world" and "the children of light".

Each of us belongs to one or the other generation. We are either born again of the Spirit to eternal life or born only of the flesh to pass away.

Matthew is a Gospel that includes most of what Jesus said about those he called "this generation", 24:34 being the last of these.

Matthew

11:16 But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their playmates,
17 We played the flute for you, and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.

18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He has a demon.
19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners! Yet wisdom is justified by her children.

12:34 "O generation of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things".

38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, 'Master, we would see a sign from you'.

39 But he answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and, behold, a greater than Jonah is here.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here".

16:4 "A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah".

17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, "O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him here to me".

23:29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchers of the righteous,
30 And say, 'If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets'.
31 "You are witnesses to yourselves, that you are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill you up then the measure of your fathers.
33 You serpents, you generation of vipers, how can you escape the damnation of Gehenna?

34 Why, behold, I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall you whip in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom you slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Truly I say to you, all these things shall come on this generation".

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 149 by Checkpoint]

Again, all that ignores Jesus failed prediction as written in Matthew 16.27, 28. Care to address the points I made in post 147?