Was Jesus and Paul wrong about the Second Coming?

[polonius]

Matt 24:34 Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

Matt 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matt 26:64 Jesus said to him in reply, You have said so.[a] But I tell you: From now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.

1Thes 4:15-17 Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 149 by Checkpoint]

Again, all that ignores Jesus failed prediction as written in Matthew 16.27, 28. Care to address the points I made in post 147?

It answered your first sentence, as the "this generation" issue is my sole focus in this debate.

Yes, it therefore ignored your other points, just as I have done throughout this thread.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 149 by Checkpoint]

Again, all that ignores Jesus failed prediction as written in Matthew 16.27, 28. Care to address the points I made in post 147?

It answered your first sentence, as the "this generation" issue is my sole focus in this debate.

Yes, it therefore ignored your other points, just as I have done throughout this thread.

That may be your focus, but the topic of the OP is in regard to Jesus failed prediction. Forget the argument about usage of the word "generation". Jesus makes no mention of that word in Matthew 16,27-28. Yet his prediction still failed. "Some of you standing here" is the phrase that Jesus used, not "generation". Quibbling over the word "generation" in this case is a red herring.

We can make the argument that Jesus was wrong about predicting his 2nd coming, without using the word "generation".

If Jesus is wrong about predicting his own return, then he is not God. If the Bible is wrong in not accurately recording Jesus' words, then the Bible is not infallible.

And that seems to be the inescapable conclusion based on the evidence of Matthew 16.27-28.

But all is not lost. God's own existence does not depend on Jesus' supposed Divinity, and the Bible's value for inspiring Godly lives does not depend on it's infallibility.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 149 by Checkpoint]

Again, all that ignores Jesus failed prediction as written in Matthew 16.27, 28. Care to address the points I made in post 147?

It answered your first sentence, as the "this generation" issue is my sole focus in this debate.

Yes, it therefore ignored your other points, just as I have done throughout this thread.

That may be your focus, but the topic of the OP is in regard to Jesus failed prediction. Forget the argument about usage of the word "generation". Jesus makes no mention of that word in Matthew 16,27-28. Yet his prediction still failed. "Some of you standing here" is the phrase that Jesus used, not "generation". Quibbling over the word "generation" in this case is a red herring.

We can make the argument that Jesus was wrong about predicting his 2nd coming, without using the word "generation".

If Jesus is wrong about predicting his own return, then he is not God. If the Bible is wrong in not accurately recording Jesus' words, then the Bible is not infallible.

And that seems to be the inescapable conclusion based on the evidence of Matthew 16.27-28.

But all is not lost. God's own existence does not depend on Jesus' supposed Divinity, and the Bible's value for inspiring Godly lives does not depend on it's infallibility.

Yes, that is how you see these things, but I don't.

We shall just have to agree to disagree.

I choose my own battles, just as I guess you do yours.

[Monta]

What are those things which were supposed to be fullfilled but were not; or were they, or... What is the end argument here.

Good question. The things which were supposed to be fullfilled were:

For the son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay everyone for what they have done.

(Matthew 16.27)

Sure sounds like the 2nd coming to me.

Jesus said in the next verse that

some standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

(Matthew 16.28)

Well, the disciples all died, and Jesus has not come back...yet.

Just because it SOUNDS like 2nd coming but nothing to say it is right?
Second verse is spot on; the Son of Man came into his kingdom at the acension as witnessed by many - "I go the my Father".

[polonius]

What are those things which were supposed to be fullfilled but were not; or were they, or... What is the end argument here.

Good question. The things which were supposed to be fullfilled were:

For the son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay everyone for what they have done.

(Matthew 16.27)

Sure sounds like the 2nd coming to me.

Jesus said in the next verse that

some standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

(Matthew 16.28)

Well, the disciples all died, and Jesus has not come back...yet.

Just because it SOUNDS like 2nd coming but nothing to say it is right?
Second verse is spot on; the Son of Man came into his kingdom at the acension as witnessed by many - "I go the my Father".

RESPONSE:

First of all the Matthew 16:28 clearly has Jesus "coming in his kingdom" while some members of his generation have 'not tasted death' that is they are still alive.

What "second verse" are you talking about? Does it contradict Matthew 16:28? If you are claiming so, provide your evidence please.

Some Bible fundamentalists and literalists try to avoid the fact that Matt 16:28 is clearly in error. There was no "second coming" during Jesus' generation, pure and simple.

[Lioness777]

[Replying to Checkpoint]

if you were to study carefully the prophetic utterances that Jesus was saying He was referring to the future.

We now are in the 'TIME OF SORROWS' for all the events that Jesus said are coming true. and if you were to relate this paragraph:

"34 Assuredly, I say to you, "THIS GENERATION" will by no means pass away till ALL these THINGS take place.

35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.


Now let's take a look at the word "THINGS" and you will see that this word refers to the below statements.:

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: Take heed that no one deceives you.

5 For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ, and will deceive many.


6 And you will HEAR OF "WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS". See that you are not troubled; for all[a] these things MUST COME TO PASSs, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.

8 ALL THESE THINGS MUST COME TO PASS MUST COME TO PASS, BUT THE END IS NOT YET.

(Then Jesus goes on to NAME more tribulations that we are feeling now.)

9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My names sake.

10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.

11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.

12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold

. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Now the end has NOT come YET...but the above events are happening just as Jesus predicted. especially "AND BECAUSE LAWLESSNESS WILL ABOUND THE LOVE OF MANY WILL GROW COLD." This statement is QUITE evedent.

Now He goes on to predict the antichrist's abomination of desolation event of which will happen in the Tribulation time, this tribulation time HAS NOT occurred yet.

Now when that happens then at the end of the 7 year period, Jesus will then come with his elect (US, the true believers, that have been RAPTURED BEFORE the TRIBULATION starts) as this statement so says:

"...and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, AND THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, FROM ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER"

Now Jesus says HEAVEN NOT EARTH!" thus His statement of gathering HIS ELECT means that we will be following Him down to EARTH to help Him defeat the Antichrist.

This hasn't happened yet because the TRIBULATION hasn't happened.

NOW here is the SIGNS that you and all the rest of the blinded don't UNDERSTAND In the parable of the fig tree:

32 Now learn this parable from the fig tree: WHEN IT'S BRANCH HAS ALREADY BECOME TENDER AND PUTS FORTH LEAVES YOU KNOW THAT SUMMER IS NEAR..." AT THE DOORS!

33 So you also, WHEN YOU SEE ALL THESE THINGS, KNOW THAT IT (HIS COMING) IS NEAR.

"AT THE DOORS!

34 Assuredly, I say to you, THIS GENERATION

(MEANING..That the generation that sees ALL OF THESE SIGNS JESUS JUST MENTIONED)

will by no means pass away TIL ALL THESE THINGS (EVENTS) TAKE PLACE"...

e. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Now, Jesus didn't stop there..He went on to explain the events of what the Rapture is going to do. And to keep watch because the time of this event is not revealed (FOR A PURPOSE!)


. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour[f] your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Now one more prediction that backs up Jesus's prophecy...found in 2nd Timothy 3:1-2
2 Timothy 3:1-2
But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,

These above statements is indicitive of the exact problems that we are facing today as a plague...and getting worse!!!!

So, being as the 'generations' of the past has come and gone, and we are still here, then we are now seeing and LIVING in the times of sorrow that Jesus had said. ...And eagarly awaiting for His coming to take us up to Him.

OUR GENERATION which is about 70 to 80 years are about up...I am part of that generation that I feel will be part of the rapture age..I base this on the fulfillment of the Jews coming 'home' to Israel in 1948.. of which I then have started the countdown to all the above things happening.

[Elijah John]

What are those things which were supposed to be fullfilled but were not; or were they, or... What is the end argument here.

Good question. The things which were supposed to be fullfilled were:

For the son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay everyone for what they have done.

(Matthew 16.27)

Sure sounds like the 2nd coming to me.

Jesus said in the next verse that

some standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

(Matthew 16.28)

Well, the disciples all died, and Jesus has not come back...yet.

Just because it SOUNDS like 2nd coming but nothing to say it is right?
Second verse is spot on; the Son of Man came into his kingdom at the acension as witnessed by many - "I go the my Father".

You'll note the Ascension had nothing to do with "repaying everyone for what they have done".

Yet, the 2nd coming is all about Divine reward and retribution.

The disciples in Jesus hearing have all passed on. And Jesus has still not returned.

[polonius]

[Replying to Checkpoint]

if you were to study carefully the prophetic utterances that Jesus was saying He was referring to the future.

We now are in the 'TIME OF SORROWS' for all the events that Jesus said are coming true. and if you were to relate this paragraph:

"34 Assuredly, I say to you, "THIS GENERATION" will by no means pass away till ALL these THINGS take place.

35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.


Now let's take a look at the word "THINGS" and you will see that this word refers to the below statements.:

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: Take heed that no one deceives you.

5 For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ, and will deceive many.


6 And you will HEAR OF "WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS". See that you are not troubled; for all[a] these things MUST COME TO PASSs, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.

8 ALL THESE THINGS MUST COME TO PASS MUST COME TO PASS, BUT THE END IS NOT YET.

(Then Jesus goes on to NAME more tribulations that we are feeling now.)

9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My names sake.

10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.

11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.

12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold

. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Now the end has NOT come YET...but the above events are happening just as Jesus predicted. especially "AND BECAUSE LAWLESSNESS WILL ABOUND THE LOVE OF MANY WILL GROW COLD." This statement is QUITE evedent.

Now He goes on to predict the antichrist's abomination of desolation event of which will happen in the Tribulation time, this tribulation time HAS NOT occurred yet.

Now when that happens then at the end of the 7 year period, Jesus will then come with his elect (US, the true believers, that have been RAPTURED BEFORE the TRIBULATION starts) as this statement so says:

"...and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, AND THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, FROM ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER"

Now Jesus says HEAVEN NOT EARTH!" thus His statement of gathering HIS ELECT means that we will be following Him down to EARTH to help Him defeat the Antichrist.

This hasn't happened yet because the TRIBULATION hasn't happened.

NOW here is the SIGNS that you and all the rest of the blinded don't UNDERSTAND In the parable of the fig tree:

32 Now learn this parable from the fig tree: WHEN IT'S BRANCH HAS ALREADY BECOME TENDER AND PUTS FORTH LEAVES YOU KNOW THAT SUMMER IS NEAR..." AT THE DOORS!

33 So you also, WHEN YOU SEE ALL THESE THINGS, KNOW THAT IT (HIS COMING) IS NEAR.

"AT THE DOORS!

34 Assuredly, I say to you, THIS GENERATION

(MEANING..That the generation that sees ALL OF THESE SIGNS JESUS JUST MENTIONED)

will by no means pass away TIL ALL THESE THINGS (EVENTS) TAKE PLACE"...

e. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Now, Jesus didn't stop there..He went on to explain the events of what the Rapture is going to do. And to keep watch because the time of this event is not revealed (FOR A PURPOSE!)


. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour[f] your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Now one more prediction that backs up Jesus's prophecy...found in 2nd Timothy 3:1-2
2 Timothy 3:1-2
But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,

These above statements is indicitive of the exact problems that we are facing today as a plague...and getting worse!!!!

So, being as the 'generations' of the past has come and gone, and we are still here, then we are now seeing and LIVING in the times of sorrow that Jesus had said. ...And eagarly awaiting for His coming to take us up to Him.

OUR GENERATION which is about 70 to 80 years are about up...I am part of that generation that I feel will be part of the rapture age..I base this on the fulfillment of the Jews coming 'home' to Israel in 1948.. of which I then have started the countdown to all the above things happening.

RESPONSE: Unfortunately you spin your theories about the events of end times but ignore the simple fact regarding when it will occur that Jesus claimed:

Matthew 16:28 8 "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

That would be those alive then in Jesus' generation, not some future generation. Elsewhere Jesus refers to this generation, the same generation (the generation of which Jesus is a part.

[Elijah John]

RESPONSE: Unfortunately you spin your theories about the events of end times but ignore the simple fact regarding when it will occur that Jesus claimed:

Matthew 16:28 8 "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

That would be those alive then in Jesus' generation, not some future generation. Elsewhere Jesus refers to this generation, the same generation (the generation of which Jesus is a part.

Matthew 16 is also in harmony with the author of Hebrews who seems to have expected Jesus return in his own lifetime as well.

as in:

"but in these last days, he has spoken to us through a son"

These "last days" have been going on for over two thousand years.

[Checkpoint]

What are those things which were supposed to be fullfilled but were not; or were they, or... What is the end argument here.

Good question. The things which were supposed to be fullfilled were:

For the son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay everyone for what they have done.

(Matthew 16.27)

Sure sounds like the 2nd coming to me.

Jesus said in the next verse that

some standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

(Matthew 16.28)

Well, the disciples all died, and Jesus has not come back...yet.

Just because it SOUNDS like 2nd coming but nothing to say it is right?
Second verse is spot on; the Son of Man came into his kingdom at the acension as witnessed by many - "I go the my Father".

You'll note the Ascension had nothing to do with "repaying everyone for what they have done".

Yet, the 2nd coming is all about Divine reward and retribution.

The disciples in Jesus hearing have all passed on. And Jesus has still not returned.

So, as you see it, he will return some time in the future?

If he was in error as to the time, could he not also be in error in his whole claim that he will return?

If not, why not, EJ?