Creation, Man, Sin: In the beginning.....What?

[polonius]

Regarding sin, JW posted:

No, it was a provision for the Adamic or inherited sin of those that would have or will recognize the value of that sacrifice.

RESPONSE: This subtopic takes the present dialogue in another direction. So much so, that I believe it appropriate to create a separate thread on the legend regarding the Original sin, man's guilt, and any need for redemption.

The founding legend of Judaism written in its present form in 800-700 BC begins with the story of creation in seven days and the relationship between God and man and sin.

In the beginning:

Scientists estimate that the hominid lineage diverged from the ape lineage 5 to 8 million years ago. Homo sapiens, the species to which we belong, has existed for about 100,000 years.

www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/cat06.html

So at the very onset, we have a vast disagreement between the Bibles seven days of creation account and what science tells us.

Lets, by way of overview, take a brief look at Bible truth regarding mans nature.

It all begins with an explanation as to why things die.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 39 by myth-one.com]

I would agree with what we read in Genesis 1:1 is a separate and complete outline of something, distinct and different from the various staged processes we read after it.

You seem to be implying that the description of the earth being initially "without form, void etc" meant is was "bad" (as opposed to good) and therefore ??? here I'm confused, therefore not part of the intial creation referred to in verse one?


JW

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

This is the end of the original creation of the heavens and the earth. There is no reason for the earth, and only the earth, to have been created as formless, void, and dark!

Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

So sometime later only the earth had become formless, empty, and dark.

At this point there are two, and only two, possible explanations:

1 -- For some reason, God originally made the earth formless, void, and dark.

2 -- God originally created the earth as good, and after a period of time it had become formless, void, and dark.

I claim that choice two is what occurred.

In which case God returned to the earth in the second part of verse two:

"and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

And performed the first logical step in the re-creation of the earth.

He turned the lights back on:

And God said, Let there be light, and there was light.

[JehovahsWitness]

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

This is the end of the original creation of the heavens and the earth. There is no reason for the earth, and only the earth, to have been created as formless, void, and dark!

But the narrative doesn't SAY that no other planets were in a similar state at that time, it doesn't make any comment either way. All we know is that it makes a comment on the condition of the earth at the time "the beginning", presumably because the narrative is going to center its focus on this our planet.

In any case the verse doesn't state what the condition of the planet was at the "end" of that period, it only states what it was like "in the beginning". Nothing more is said. So we cannot make any statements about what other planets were like, and we cannot say what the earth was like in the end, but we do know what it was like "in the beginning" and we know that state was subsequently altered as the creative days progressed.

There is no reason for the earth, [strike]and only the earth[/strike], to have been created as formless, void, and dark

And there is no reason for it NOT to be. It was what it was. That's what the earth was like when God first created it, it's not a moral statement, just a statement of fact about the condition of the planet when it was first created.

[JehovahsWitness]

So sometime later [strike]only[/strike] the earth had become formless, empty, and dark.

Why do you say "the earth had become formless, empty and dark"... this implies that you think "in the beginning" the earth was initially "formed, inhabited and light" and then God made it (it became) formless, empty and dark.

However the bible gives no indication whatsoever that previous to "the beginning" the earth was any of these things. Indeed the statement in Genesis 1:1 indicates that previous to being in this state the earth didn't exist.

"In the beginning God created [...] the earth" [Hebrew bara ie from nothing] and that earth is described with the words "and the earth proved to be [or was] formless, void and dark". What in these statements leaves room for anything but that it was intitially created in this condition (ie formless, empty and dark)?

At this point there are two, and only two, possible explanations:

1 -- For some reason, God originally made the earth formless, void, and dark.
[strike]2 -- God originally created the earth as good, and after a period of time it had become formless, void, and dark.[/strike]

Yes, number one. Number two is groundless speculation, which is unsupported by the actual words in the text. Number one is accepting the text as written and contains nothing that is contextually, narratively or even scientifically objectionable.

[myth-one.com]

So sometime later [strike]only[/strike] the earth had become formless, empty, and dark.

Why do you say "the earth had become formless, empty and dark"... this implies that you think "in the beginning" the earth was initially "formed, inhabited and light" and then God made it (it became) formless, empty and dark.

However the bible gives no indication whatsoever that previous to "the beginning" the earth was any of these things. Indeed the statement in Genesis 1:1 indicates that previous to being in this state the earth didn't exist.

"In the beginning God created [...] the earth" [Hebrew bara ie from nothing] and that earth is described with the words "and the earth proved to be [or was] formless, void and dark". What in these statements leaves room for anything but that it was intitially created in this condition (ie formless, empty and dark)?

At this point there are two, and only two, possible explanations:

1 -- For some reason, God originally made the earth formless, void, and dark.
[strike]2 -- God originally created the earth as good, and after a period of time it had become formless, void, and dark.[/strike]

Yes, number one. Number two is groundless speculation, which is unsupported by the actual words in the text. Number one is accepting the text as written and contains nothing that is contextually, narratively or even scientifically objectionable.

So God screwed up the original creation of the earth?

And it is groundless speculation that everything God ever made was good?

Are you speaking for yourself, or is this the belief of all Jehovah's Witnesses?

[JehovahsWitness]

So God screwed up the original creation of the earth?

Why do you say that?

[myth-one.com]

So God screwed up the original creation of the earth?

Why do you say that?

I asked that question because you claimed that God created the earth without form, void, and dark.

[JehovahsWitness]

So God screwed up the original creation of the earth?

Why do you say that?

I asked that question because you claimed that God created the earth without form, void, and dark.

And why would you consider that (I don't like to use this language but...) "a screw up"?

JW

[myth-one.com]

So God screwed up the original creation of the earth?

Why do you say that?

I asked that question because you claimed that God created the earth without form, void, and dark.

And why would you consider that (I don't like to use this language but...) "a screw up"?

JW

My apologies.

Let me rephrase the question.

Instead of a "screwed up" earth, I'll use the words God used:

So you think God intentionally created the earth as formless, empty, and dark?

Yes or no.

[JehovahsWitness]

So you think God intentionally created the earth as formless, empty, and dark?

Yes or no.

Yes. Do you consider that a problematic in some way?

JW

[myth-one.com]

So you think God intentionally created the earth as formless, empty, and dark?

Yes or no.

Yes. Do you consider that a problematic in some way?

JW

Yes, it contradicts another statement made by God:

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

Is a formless, empty, dark earth good?