"Torture stake" vs. "Cross"

[Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witness changed the word "cross" to "torture stake" and the word "crucified" to "impaled" in their New World Translation of the Bible.

This seems to be the only translation that does so.

And JW illustrations of the crucifixion depict Jesus not on the cross, but hanging from a pole, a "torture stake".

For debate: Why did their translators do this?

What theological or doctrinal clarification could this change possibly convey?

Does this change defy history, or did the Romans "impale" it's criminals as opposed to crucifying them?

Also, do these changes enchance or detract from the NWT's credibility?

[onewithhim]

t doesn't get you mad just a little when certain religions LIE? It gets me mad. Jehovah hates a "lying tongue." (Proverbs 6:16,17) A lying tongue gets me going too.

God alone knows whose tongue is inclined to untruths. JWs intend to follow the Bible and intend to interpret correctly. Sadly, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. There are millions of devout Catholics who honour God in a way that does not discredit other humans. When we think we are without blemish and have the one true interpretation of what God wants, we should remember Matthew:

Matthew 7:1-3 (KJV)

Judge not, that ye be not judged.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Christ warned against the Pharisee picking out pieces of law, claiming bright truth while ignoring the basic elements of humanity. And Demosthenes expressed it beautifully : “Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what every man wishes, that he also believes to be true.�

Take care.

Yes, but people are being shepherded right toward a cliff. The leaders of the various religions are responsible for keeping their flocks fooled. There ARE many good people in various religions. Shouldn't we feel bad for them that they are being deceived?

We're not talking about judging our "brothers," our spiritual family, or even individuals within these various religions. We're talking about the deceitful, surreptitious leaders of the religions that play their vast flocks like a piano.

[Elijah John]

t doesn't get you mad just a little when certain religions LIE? It gets me mad. Jehovah hates a "lying tongue." (Proverbs 6:16,17) A lying tongue gets me going too.

God alone knows whose tongue is inclined to untruths. JWs intend to follow the Bible and intend to interpret correctly. Sadly, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. There are millions of devout Catholics who honour God in a way that does not discredit other humans. When we think we are without blemish and have the one true interpretation of what God wants, we should remember Matthew:

Matthew 7:1-3 (KJV)

Judge not, that ye be not judged.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Christ warned against the Pharisee picking out pieces of law, claiming bright truth while ignoring the basic elements of humanity. And Demosthenes expressed it beautifully : “Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what every man wishes, that he also believes to be true.�

Take care.

Yes, but people are being shepherded right toward a cliff. The leaders of the various religions are responsible for keeping their flocks fooled. There ARE many good people in various religions. Shouldn't we feel bad for them that they are being deceived?

We're not talking about judging our "brothers," our spiritual family, or even individuals within these various religions. We're talking about the deceitful, surreptitious leaders of the religions that play their vast flocks like a piano.

How can you be so certain that deception is not happening from your leaders and organization?

Again, differences of doctrine and interpretation do not constitute "deception".

[marco]

I believe that what I consider false religion IS deliberately deceiving the people. All those centuries of popes like the Borgias?

There weren't "centuries of Popes like the Borgias". Many led saintly lives. Some called to the highest office let their office down; they were not communicating what their religion had taught them but leading lives of evil and debauchery. Do you suppose that God chooses only the best as his instruments? You yourself said that God can use pagans as his vehicles of transmission. Jesus chose Judas who is the arch-traitor. Do not confuse the actions of bad people with the faith they dishonour.

[marco]

Yes, but people are being shepherded right toward a cliff. The leaders of the various religions are responsible for keeping their flocks fooled. There ARE many good people in various religions. Shouldn't we feel bad for them that they are being deceived?

I see no point in A throwing snowballs at B since B can equally well return the fire. It's a pointless game. Your view is built on your opinions; so is theirs, only over a much longer period of time. Cardinals and bishops may indeed sin, since no one is impeccable. But if you examine the elements of their faith they preach that Christ is their guiding light, the way, the truth and the life. They attempt to live by that belief and though I no longer uphold my old religion, I can honestly say that I came away firmly persuaded that those in command were good. I met John Paul ii and I was impressed by the goodness of the man.

We're not talking about judging our "brothers," our spiritual family, or even individuals within these various religions. We're talking about the deceitful, surreptitious leaders of the religions that play their vast flocks like a piano.

I believe leaders of some Protestant sects ask followers for vast sums of money. I think you have been misinformed. I too have probably been misinformed about JWs, and since they are a relatively young offshoot of Christianity, I haven't given them much thought. What has to be said for and against Christianity was said long before some religious explorers decided to put another spin on religion. I do think that a religion that allows children to die for want of a blood transfusion needs to revise its methodology and belief system.

In any event, the Pope and other leaders in the Church use the crucifix to remind all that Christ died for us. That can hardly be disreputable since it is universally believed in Christian circles.

[onewithhim]

t doesn't get you mad just a little when certain religions LIE? It gets me mad. Jehovah hates a "lying tongue." (Proverbs 6:16,17) A lying tongue gets me going too.

God alone knows whose tongue is inclined to untruths. JWs intend to follow the Bible and intend to interpret correctly. Sadly, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. There are millions of devout Catholics who honour God in a way that does not discredit other humans. When we think we are without blemish and have the one true interpretation of what God wants, we should remember Matthew:

Matthew 7:1-3 (KJV)

Judge not, that ye be not judged.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Christ warned against the Pharisee picking out pieces of law, claiming bright truth while ignoring the basic elements of humanity. And Demosthenes expressed it beautifully : “Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what every man wishes, that he also believes to be true.�

Take care.

Yes, but people are being shepherded right toward a cliff. The leaders of the various religions are responsible for keeping their flocks fooled. There ARE many good people in various religions. Shouldn't we feel bad for them that they are being deceived?

We're not talking about judging our "brothers," our spiritual family, or even individuals within these various religions. We're talking about the deceitful, surreptitious leaders of the religions that play their vast flocks like a piano.

How can you be so certain that deception is not happening from your leaders and organization?

Again, differences of doctrine and interpretation do not constitute "deception".

For the last several months I (and others here) have been giving information and reasoning from the Scriptures to show just how religions have erred. I have even talked about Bro. Russell and Bro. Rutherford having certain viewpoints that were dropped by the organization when ascertained to be wrong. Other religions haven't done this. When they have been wrong or are proved spiritually off-base, they don't change. JWs have always been careful to cling to Bible truth. There is one church that comes right out and says, "We do not base our faith on Sola Scriptura. Tradition is more important." I'm sorry, but if you can't see the difference, there is nothing more I can say. We'll just have to agree to disagree.


(BTW, I might have missed it, but I don't think you have commented on JWs' reasons for setting forth the idea of a stake instead of a cross. We gave good reasoning, but I don't remember any response about that particular issue from you.)

[onewithhim]

I believe that what I consider false religion IS deliberately deceiving the people. All those centuries of popes like the Borgias?

There weren't "centuries of Popes like the Borgias". Many led saintly lives. Some called to the highest office let their office down; they were not communicating what their religion had taught them but leading lives of evil and debauchery. Do you suppose that God chooses only the best as his instruments? You yourself said that God can use pagans as his vehicles of transmission. Jesus chose Judas who is the arch-traitor. Do not confuse the actions of bad people with the faith they dishonour.

Of course God chooses the best as his instruments...that is, the ones running his Church! He has his BEST leading the Church---Jesus Christ. He wouldn't place a Borgia or a Pope Gregory or a Pope Pius XII as a representative of himself in his Church. Do some research.


.

[onewithhim]

Yes, but people are being shepherded right toward a cliff. The leaders of the various religions are responsible for keeping their flocks fooled. There ARE many good people in various religions. Shouldn't we feel bad for them that they are being deceived?

I see no point in A throwing snowballs at B since B can equally well return the fire. It's a pointless game. Your view is built on your opinions; so is theirs, only over a much longer period of time. Cardinals and bishops may indeed sin, since no one is impeccable. But if you examine the elements of their faith they preach that Christ is their guiding light, the way, the truth and the life. They attempt to live by that belief and though I no longer uphold my old religion, I can honestly say that I came away firmly persuaded that those in command were good. I met John Paul ii and I was impressed by the goodness of the man.

We're not talking about judging our "brothers," our spiritual family, or even individuals within these various religions. We're talking about the deceitful, surreptitious leaders of the religions that play their vast flocks like a piano.

I believe leaders of some Protestant sects ask followers for vast sums of money. I think you have been misinformed. I too have probably been misinformed about JWs, and since they are a relatively young offshoot of Christianity, I haven't given them much thought. What has to be said for and against Christianity was said long before some religious explorers decided to put another spin on religion. I do think that a religion that allows children to die for want of a blood transfusion needs to revise its methodology and belief system.

In any event, the Pope and other leaders in the Church use the crucifix to remind all that Christ died for us. That can hardly be disreputable since it is universally believed in Christian circles.

What use is there to even talk if you won't check out information that is presented to you to disprove the charges of worldly people that say that JWs "let their children die because of the lack of a blood transfusion"? You won't even look into the matter. I have provided links to various hospitals around the country that routinely practice bloodless medicine, and yet apparently no one checks them out. Our children have SURVIVED in spite of no blood, and actually BECAUSE we wouldn't allow blood. No one thinks of children like Ryan White... and Ariel (the child of a famous TV actor), who got blood transfusions and then died of AIDS. They would undoubtedly still be here if they had not been given blood. The medical community is finding out---and has for a long time now---that bloodless medicine is the best medicine. I had a serious operation last year and the surgeon did it without blood. A 5-hour operation on my intestines. He said later, "Oh, I do it all the time!" And with great success.

Check out the facts. Then we can have deep, meaningful discussions.

[marco]

He has his BEST leading the Church---Jesus Christ. He wouldn't place a Borgia or a Pope Gregory or a Pope Pius XII as a representative of himself in his Church. Do some research.

Perhaps you can tell me the latest magazines God has produced that give you this privileged information as to what God would and would not do. It is eminently possible that God would take a man, Pope Francis, noted for his concern for poor people and for his humility to represent him. But you have me at a disadvantage: I cannot presume to speak for God.

[marco]

Check out the facts. Then we can have deep, meaningful discussions.

It would be commendable if the JW prohibition were based, as you imply, on scientific knowledge when in fact it arises from some religious consideration that some might ungenerously call superstition. Of course it will work here and fail there. I wasn't interested in the success rate; it was the reasons for the curious rule. Catholics also have curious customs which, no doubt, you would mock. I am trying to point out that we can be terribly inconsistent in our judgments; what we do is good; what they do is bad seems to be the principle.

[onewithhim]

He has his BEST leading the Church---Jesus Christ. He wouldn't place a Borgia or a Pope Gregory or a Pope Pius XII as a representative of himself in his Church. Do some research.

Perhaps you can tell me the latest magazines God has produced that give you this privileged information as to what God would and would not do. It is eminently possible that God would take a man, Pope Francis, noted for his concern for poor people and for his humility to represent him. But you have me at a disadvantage: I cannot presume to speak for God.

I do not mean to give the impression that I speak for God. I am giving my own opinions, based, I have to say, on what the Scriptures say. When individuals are shady at best and satanic at worst, I can't get away from the thought that they could not be representing Christ or Jehovah. We'll just have to see where the chips fall when the Great Tribulation starts.