"Torture stake" vs. "Cross"

[Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witness changed the word "cross" to "torture stake" and the word "crucified" to "impaled" in their New World Translation of the Bible.

This seems to be the only translation that does so.

And JW illustrations of the crucifixion depict Jesus not on the cross, but hanging from a pole, a "torture stake".

For debate: Why did their translators do this?

What theological or doctrinal clarification could this change possibly convey?

Does this change defy history, or did the Romans "impale" it's criminals as opposed to crucifying them?

Also, do these changes enchance or detract from the NWT's credibility?

[Monta]

[Replying to onewithhim]

"He had the power to save ALL of the lives that were lost to the Holocaust."

Same way as Christians and their leaders had power to stop war on
Palestine. Why didn't they do it.

Because they're all looking out for the own butts, scared of losing their hold on power and wealth. They're not about truth and light. They're all about what's in it for them.
.

There's a lot of truth in that and also we are easily led by media and politicians that in the end we don't know what is true or false. It's up to us to dig through it and choose that what is true becauase it is true.

Well, perhaps we can not do that either. If you question the holocaust, and it is Jewish only does not include millions of other people who have died, you are accused of anti-semitism and in some countries imprisoned.
In the end seeking truth for ourselves alone is the best we can do.

[marco]

There's a lot of truth in that and also we are easily led by media and politicians that in the end we don't know what is true or false. It's up to us to dig through it and choose that what is true becauase it is true.

If only! We would choose that which other fellow believers declared true, whether it's true or not.

In the end seeking truth for ourselves alone is the best we can do.

We can do better than that. We can decide not to demonise people because we've heard whispers. We can remember that we are as likely as Jack next door to be mistaken. Showing consideration and generosity towards our neighbour might just help.

[onewithhim]

There's a lot of truth in that and also we are easily led by media and politicians that in the end we don't know what is true or false. It's up to us to dig through it and choose that what is true becauase it is true.

If only! We would choose that which other fellow believers declared true, whether it's true or not.

In the end seeking truth for ourselves alone is the best we can do.

We can do better than that. We can decide not to demonise people because we've heard whispers. We can remember that we are as likely as Jack next door to be mistaken. Showing consideration and generosity towards our neighbour might just help.

You can't ignore known FACTS. You call evidence against the churches as "whispers." No, we are not talking whispers here, and I have cited just a handful of bold facts....a very few amidst an avalanche of facts. There is no being mistaken about what has happened and is still happening involving the religions of the world. Should a bishop be called to account for conspiring to shuttle Nazi war criminals out of Germany and across the sea to other lands? Or should we sit on our hands and not indict him because we would be "demonizing" him?

How do you think the concentration camp victims felt when they were herded into railroad cars and hoped beyond all hope that they would be saved, only to be separated from their families and, if they were lucky, instead of going immediately to the gas chambers, they were put in a hell-hole of an experience, of filth, starvation, brutality, freezing cold....and they would wonder, "is anyone going to help us?" Would you have said to them, "We can't demonize the Nazis or the churches that support them because that's not nice"?

Truly, showing generosity towards our neighbors will help considerably. And shouldn't the churches have been doing that during the Holocaust?


.

[marco]

You can't ignore known FACTS.

I don't. I ignore myths.

Should a bishop be called to account for conspiring to shuttle Nazi war criminals out of Germany and across the sea to other lands? Or should we sit on our hands and not indict him because we would be "demonizing" him?

You demonised the Pope. I have no idea what you're talking about in this particular case but I guess there were Jehovah's Witnesses who collaborated with the Nazis. That has nothing whatsoever to do with that religion. When I pointed out that individual Catholic priests helped, you said this was irrelevant. Now you pick a case where some bishop acted badly and you tar the entire church. We can't win.

You have been shown figures, accepted by Jewish authorities, that indicate the Pope, all unknown to the world then, rescued nearly one million Jews. Does this alone not show that he was acting in a good and merciful way? Apparently not. You think he should have stopped the war.

How do you think the concentration camp victims felt when they were herded into railroad cars and hoped beyond all hope that they would be saved, only to be separated from their families and, if they were lucky.....

Then why didn't the combined army of Jehovah's Witnesses not save these victims? That's as sensible as suggesting the Catholic Church sent them to concentration camps.

In our determination to demonise Catholicism we're drawing an equivalence between Hitler and Pius, between Catholic and Nazi.

We have moved away from the OP long enough and I no longer wish to revisit the Pope's part in the Holocaust. The cross of Christ is our theme and Catholics believe in it, using the crucifix to remind them. When we move far from Christ's teaching, we see bad in good. So let's honour the crucifix as a healthy reminder of Christ.

[Monta]

[Replying to marco]

" So let's honour the crucifix as a healthy reminder of Christ."

Just a thought...
I know many people wear crucifix but that is reminder of the crucifixion
which was only in a moment in time.
The Lord is now in eternal risen state and we remember him as He is now.

On another thread we were talking about auras. At the transfiguration the Lord's face shone as the sun. How much brighter does his face shine now in his ressurected state! I'd like someting with the sun on it.

[2timothy316]

Then why didn't the combined army of Jehovah's Witnesses not save these victims?

Because we do not rely on human armies, we rely on Jehovah God.

"It is better to take refuge in Jehovah Than to trust in earthling man." - Ps 118:8

[marco]

On another thread we were talking about auras. At the transfiguration the Lord's face shone as the sun. How much brighter does his face shine now in his ressurected state! I'd like something with the sun on it.

Which is perfectly good. People like different pictures of Jesus; he's popular as the infant in a manger. His suffering and crucifixion feature in the hearts of many followers who want to remember what he did for them. On Easter Sunday people remember the risen Christ, and that feast day is prominent in the Church calendar.

I think there's room for all aspects of remembering Christ.

[2timothy316]

In our determination to demonise Catholicism we're drawing an equivalence between Hitler and Pius, between Catholic and Nazi.

Well, its just that these pictures are not helping. It's part of historical fact and it can't be erased that the Catholic church made a huge error in friends.

[marco]

Well, its just that these pictures are not helping. It's part of historical fact and it can't be erased that the Catholic church made a huge error in friends.

These pictures show two prelates submitting to the then authority, as St. Paul required them to do. I have already pointed out the benevolent actions of Pius xii which indicates he opposed Hitler's brutality. I've no idea at what stage the pictures you show were taken but I should imagine that when priests were told to salute, they saluted. Some didn't, and died.

Here is the text you have forgotten:



Romans 13:1

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God.

[2timothy316]

Well, its just that these pictures are not helping. It's part of historical fact and it can't be erased that the Catholic church made a huge error in friends.

These pictures show two prelates submitting to the then authority, as St. Paul required them to do. I have already pointed out the benevolent actions of Pius xii which indicates he opposed Hitler's brutality. I've no idea at what stage the pictures you show were taken but I should imagine that when priests were told to salute, they saluted. Some didn't, and died.

Here is the text you have forgotten:



Romans 13:1

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God.

Yet you have forgotten when it comes to a crossroads, “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.�—Acts 5:29.

JWs couldn't accept the oaths.

The Wehrmacht Oath of Loyalty to Adolf Hitler, 2 August 1934

"I swear to God this sacred oath that to the Leader of the German Empire and people, Adolf Hitler, supreme commander of the armed forces, I shall render unconditional obedience and that as a brave soldier I shall at all times be prepared to give my life for this oath."

Service oath for public servants

"I swear: I will be faithful and obedient to the leader of the German Empire and people, Adolf Hitler, to observe the law, and to conscientiously fulfill my official duties, so help me God!"

Unacceptable for JWs but for many of the Catholic leadership of that time apparently, it was acceptable.