Undermining one's credibility..

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Elijah John
Savant
Posts: 12236
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
Location: New England
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 16 times

Undermining one's credibility..

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

Why do Evangelicals and Jehovah's Witnesses claim the Bible is perfect when it contains verses like this?
Numbers 15:32-36, ESV: "32 While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation. 34 They put him in custody, because it had not been made clear what should be done to him. 35 And the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.� 36 And all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, as the Lord commanded Moses."
And then there is the slave-beating verse, (which reference escapes me for the moment) which implies that is not only permissible to own another human being, but to beat them half to death as long as they "don't die right away" and this is ok because slaves "are your property".

For debate. Are these passages from God (assuming there is a God for the sake of argument) or is this the law of Moses for a Theocratic society?

Did the same God who said "Thou shalt not kill" and do unto others as you would have them do unto you" pen the above verses as well?

Does it undermine one's credibility, the credibility of the Faith, or the credibility of the Bible do attempt to justify or to defend such atrocious passages?

Believers, why are some of you so reluctant to admit that some things in the Bible are just plain wrong, and defy God-given common sense and decency?

And why do you attempt to defend or justify such atrocious passages?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 22886
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 899 times
Been thanked: 1338 times
Contact:

Re: Undermining one's credibility..

Post #11

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Elijah John wrote: Why do Evangelicals and Jehovah's Witnesses claim the Bible is perfect when it contains verses like this?
Numbers 15:32-36, ESV: "32 While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation. 34 They put him in custody, because it had not been made clear what should be done to him. 35 And the Lord said to Moses, The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp. 36 And all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, as the Lord commanded Moses."

QUESTION: how do you justify God commanding we kill someone simply for working on a particular day?
If someone doesn't want to respect the law of the land where they live, they are free to leave but living within a nation's territories implies you will comply with the laws of that country or face the consequences. While people have certain God given rights, the right to pick up sticks whenever they like is rarely, if ever sighted as one of them. Given how easy the law to refrain from working on a sabbath was, justification should be demanded from the criminal as to why he broke the law, not the other way round.
Demanding the "right" to work yourself (or your employee or animals) into the ground.

The right "to work seven days a week without a break" would be a perverse issue to attempt to promote, even today. That would be paramount to demanding the right to work yourself into the ground like a slave. No one needed at the time, to work seven days a week and no one would starve or die because they took a day off - especially in an agricultural community where their income was dependent for the most part on the seasons. Looking at things practically, one could argue that giving workers a day OFF is a very compassionate provision, so if anyone should have a problem with the arrangement, it should be those being denied that right to a day off rather than the other way round.

QUESTION Why was there such a severe penalty for breaking the Sabbath law

As has been stated this law wasn't "cruel" or "unreasonable" because working 7/7 is not a human right, on the contrary modern laws reflect this principle of giving workers time of and make it illegal in many countries to make employees work without time off. That the crime carried the death penalty was reflective of the fact that the legal system was based on spiritual principles, principles which not only protected hired workers but more importantly protected the religious system which was essential for the nations survival.

Unlike other nations, the Israelites as a nation had formally agreed to theocratic rule ('theocratic' literally mean "rule by God") and to the terms as outlined in the law which included the respect of the Sabbath as one of its 10 main commandments. Anyone born in that nation automatically came under the obligation to obey national law. As has been mentioned, there were no closed borders, so if anyone didn't like those laws they were free to pack up their donkey and sandals and move to a nation were one could pick up sticks any day of the week.

Those that stayed needed to understand that God cannot have dealings with that which he views as unclean, so if He (God) was to continue to protect them (keep them all alive) against surrounding nations, they had to reflect his righteous standards, obey his laws continue to focus on pure worship. The Sabbath was central to this end. It meant one day a week was set aside by every Jewish family to be devoted to worship and learning God's laws. It enabled them to realize that they were dependent on their Creator. If they failed to do this, they would lose faith and eventually God's favor, and without His protection they would inevitably as a small nation, be conquered by surrounding nations leading to the enslavement and death of millions. So respect for the Sabbath was essentially a matter of the life or death of the nation.

Of course anyone has the right to openly defy a law they see it as unjust if they are willing to die for their cause, presumably in the hope that their lives will create a mass rebellion against it. Arguably only the stupidest and most misguided of people would would choose this particular law as their cause.
CONCLUSION: The Sabbath law was ahead of its time in that it protected every laborer from being worked into the ground as well as gave consideration to animal welfare. More importantly it enabled the nation never to lose sight of the principles that were keeping them alive. Someone that broke that law then was willfully undermining the principles upon which the nation itself was based. Naturally such a treasonous act carried a severe penalty.

[/i]
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Zzyzx
Site Supporter
Posts: 25089
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:38 pm
Location: Bible Belt USA
Has thanked: 40 times
Been thanked: 73 times

Re: Undermining one's credibility..

Post #12

Post by Zzyzx »

.
JehovahsWitness wrote: The right "to work seven days a week without a break" would be a perverse issue to attempt to promote, even today.
The RIGHT to work seven days is NOT perverse. If someone wishes to work seven hours a day to accomplish their objectives it would be perverse to deny them that RIGHT to work as much as they choose.
JehovahsWitness wrote: That would be paramount to demanding the right to work yourself into the ground
Should a person such as Thomas Edison NOT be allowed to work as much as he wanted (and only nap for four hours per day on his workbench at times as has been reported)?
JehovahsWitness wrote: like a slave.
Slavery connotes involuntary servitude
JehovahsWitness wrote: No one needed at the time, to work seven days a week and no one would starve or die because they took a day off - especially in an agricultural community where their income was dependent for the most part on the seasons.
Farmers often DO and DID work seven days a week. Perhaps city people do not realize that cows must be milked twice a day every day and that crops must be tended, protected, harvested as required by conditions -- not by day of the week.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Looking at things practically, one could argue that giving workers a day OFF is a very compassionate provision, so if anyone should have a problem with the arrangement, it should be those being denied that right to a day off rather than the other way round.
Giving someone a day off is NOT the same as forcing people to take a day off.

What is the justification for decreeing WHICH day of the week a person is to be off work?
.
Non-Theist

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

User avatar
rikuoamero
Under Probation
Posts: 6707
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:06 pm
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Undermining one's credibility..

Post #13

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 11 by JehovahsWitness]
Those that stayed needed to understand that God cannot have dealings with that which he views as unclean, so if He (God) was to continue to protect them (keep them all alive) against surrounding nations, they had to reflect his righteous standards, obey his laws continue to focus on pure worship. The Sabbath was central to this end. It meant one day a week was set aside by every Jewish family to be devoted to worship and learning God's laws. It enabled them to realize that they were dependent on their Creator. If they failed to do this, they would lose faith and eventually God's favor, and without His protection they would inevitably as a small nation, be conquered by surrounding nations leading to the enslavement and death of millions. So respect for the Sabbath was essentially a matter of the life or death of the nation.
The gist of what I'm getting here is that God apparently is so OCD, so nitpicky about everyone obeying him and earning his protection, that he won't even allow someone to pick up sticks on the 'wrong' day of the work, (maybe to light a fire to keep warm? I can empathise with that, my current habitation is freezing and every night I have to put the kettle on for water bottles).

Also...God can't have dealings with that which he views as unclean? Remind me again what Jesus is praised for doing? When I was growing up, my teachers praised Jesus to myself and my classmates for having meals with certain people.
Image

Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

User avatar
Willum
Savant
Posts: 9017
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:14 pm
Location: Yahweh's Burial Place
Has thanked: 35 times
Been thanked: 82 times

Re: Undermining one's credibility..

Post #14

Post by Willum »

[Replying to Elijah John]

The thing that makes all of this make sense is that it is OK for some people to own others and beat them to death.

For the other people, it is not OK to look at them sideways, or else God sends bears after you, etc..

Determining who's who is not so straightforward, but it seems to be a matter of who is writing and something to do with a lineage.

Lineage is very important to God for some reason.
It is very important to other folks in history as well - those who act very similarly as a matter of fact.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 22886
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 899 times
Been thanked: 1338 times
Contact:

Re: Undermining one's credibility..

Post #15

Post by JehovahsWitness »

rikuoamero wrote:Also...God can't have dealings with that which he views as unclean? Remind me again what Jesus is praised for doing? When I was growing up, my teachers praised Jesus to myself and my classmates for having meals with certain people.
Firstly Jesus is not God. Secondly neither Jesus nor God viewed the people he (Jesus) ate with as unclean. The prostitutes and tax collectors Jesus ate with were viewed by THE PHARISEES as unclean. Their humble repentant attitude meant evidently neither Jesus nor his Father viewed them that way.

If you look carefully at what I wrote again you will see I said God can't have dealings that which HE views as unclean, I make no reference to what the Pharisees or others view as unclean.


Hope that clears up my statement,

JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
rikuoamero
Under Probation
Posts: 6707
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:06 pm
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Undermining one's credibility..

Post #16

Post by rikuoamero »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
rikuoamero wrote:Also...God can't have dealings with that which he views as unclean? Remind me again what Jesus is praised for doing? When I was growing up, my teachers praised Jesus to myself and my classmates for having meals with certain people.
Firstly Jesus is not God. Secondly neither Jesus nor God viewed the people he (Jesus) ate with as unclean. The prostitutes and tax collectors Jesus ate with were viewed by THE PHARISEES as unclean. Their humble repentant attitude meant evidently neither Jesus nor his Father viewed them that way.

If you look carefully at what I wrote again you will see I said God can't have dealings that which HE views as unclean, I make no reference to what the Pharisees or others view as unclean.


Hope that clears up my statement,

JW
Ah...so who the Pharisees say were 'unclean' in God's eyes is incorrect, but what you and the other JW's say is correct?

It never fails to amaze me just how often I come across Person or Group of People A saying that THEY understand what God likes/believes/understands/desires but when Person B or Group of People B say the exact same thing...why B is/are wrong! Just wrong!

I take the correction, but my point still stands. What if God really did view these people as 'unclean', as per the Pharisees? Can you really speak for God?
Image

Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

User avatar
Willum
Savant
Posts: 9017
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:14 pm
Location: Yahweh's Burial Place
Has thanked: 35 times
Been thanked: 82 times

Re: Undermining one's credibility..

Post #17

Post by Willum »

[Replying to rikuoamero]

In addendum:
Not only do they understand better, but they understand better than those thousands of years closer to the alleged message and who understood the language which modern comprehenders bicker about!

The Pharisee, destroyed the Sadducee, and became two sects: Christians and Modern Jews. Where else do people think they came from? Created from clay?

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 22886
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 899 times
Been thanked: 1338 times
Contact:

Re: Undermining one's credibility..

Post #18

Post by JehovahsWitness »

rikuoamero wrote: Ah...so who the Pharisees say were 'unclean' in God's eyes is incorrect..
Yes, I believe completely that the Pharisees were incorrect in their view of ordinary people. Pretty much everyone in their opinion was unclean, in fact they would it is said refer to the people as "am haret" (sp?) meaning "people of the earth" (dirty people) I believe a common expressions today is "the great unwashed" or "common as muck". Anyway, yes I believe they did not reflect how Jesus viewed the men and women that came to him.

Jesus treated them with dignity. He respected them enough to teach them (the was a school of thought among the Pharisees that ordinary working class people could not attain salvation and were not worthy of being taught, especially women. Jesus gave no indication that those who came to listen to him were dirty, unworthy, beneath his dignity.
rikuoamero wrote:I take the correction, but my point still stands. What if God really did view these people as 'unclean', as per the Pharisees? Can you really speak for God?
I cannot go beyond what is written. God has, I believe, preserved the record of what Jesus said and did for us, so we humans can have at least an idea of how He (God) feels about things.

Jesus, I believe could indeed speak for God and he was very clear about how he viewed the attitude and conclusions of the Pharisees as a group. He called them "blind guides", "hypocrits" and when they criticized him for associating with the ordinary folk they looked down on reprimanded them saying such ones where his "brothers and sisters". So you are free to believe as you wish, but even the most cursory reading of the gospels indicates that Jesus (who did speak for God) did not view the people as the Pharisees did.








rikuoamero wrote: ... but what you and the other JW's say is correct?
Nobody is obliged to take what I or any other person, Jehovah's Witness or not as correct. If you find what I have written unconvincing, simply ignore it.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Willum
Savant
Posts: 9017
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:14 pm
Location: Yahweh's Burial Place
Has thanked: 35 times
Been thanked: 82 times

Re: Undermining one's credibility..

Post #19

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 18 by JehovahsWitness]

And the Pharisee, whom had original works on tap and in their own language, would know that your interpretations were wrong.

What would you say to them?
You'd say this, and they'd hold up that Hebrew/Aramaic you are so fond of quoting.
Hmmmm.

User avatar
ttruscott
Site Supporter
Posts: 11064
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: West Coast of Canada
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Undermining one's credibility..

Post #20

Post by ttruscott »

Elijah John wrote: Why do Evangelicals and Jehovah's Witnesses claim the Bible is perfect when it contains verses like this?
Numbers 15:32-36, ESV: "32 While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation. 34 They put him in custody, because it had not been made clear what should be done to him. 35 And the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.� 36 And all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, as the Lord commanded Moses."
This is a perfect real life lesson that all sin has an equal and ultimate disvalue in GOD's sight...murder and working on the Sabbath had equal weight. Was this man a great sinner and his fate in the eternal darkness sealed by this death? Or was he a sinful elect who upon realizing his blasé attitude toward his GOD repented at death and thereby entered salvation? It does not matter - his death seals his fate, it does not create it.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

Post Reply