From God or about God?

[Elijah John]

This is a portion from a post I made on another thread. I thought it would be a good debate topic in and of itself.

Assuming there is a God, one can still consider that the Bible is not entirely from God, nor does it claim to be. It seems to me that a more reasonable way to look at it is to see the Bible as being about God, inspired by God.

Or more accurately, about an ancient people's encounter with the mysterious Divine, who they understood as "God".

That way, one can take the Bible seriously, but not literally. And not be compelled to defend everything contained within it's pages.

The only portions of the Bible that I recall that are even claimed to be from God are the Ten Commandments, (allegedly written by the finger of God Himself) and the prophetic utterances, which begin with the phrase ""Thus saith the LORD" and Jesus "verily, verily" statements.

To borrow a phrase from Hillel, "all the rest is commentary". Commentary and historical and cultural context.

So it seems to me that an entirely reasonable approach to the Bible, (if one is inclined to be a Bible-based Theist) is to view the Good Book not as infallible dictation, but as inspiration. Inspiration as a lover is inspired by his beloved to write love poetry.

That poetry doesn't come from the beloved, but rather it is inspired by the beloved.

And really, what is wrong with a believer picking the portions that resonate and ring true for them, and deriving Spiritual inspiration from those portions?

Who can argue with that?

After all, very few (except for some maniacs) are inspired by the verses which advocate stoning people to death, keeping or beating slaves.

But millions are inspired by the belief that there is a God, who commanded us to "love thy neighbor as thy self".

So for debate:,

Is Biblical literalism the only valid way to view the Bible? Is it the best way? Or can one derive Spiritual inspiration from a book such as the Bible even though one realizes it is not perfect.

Please justify your anwers.

[Divine Insight]

Please justify your answers.

The Bible clearly makes all manner of claims concerning what God commands us to do and how to behave. Therefore the idea that it needs to be "justified" that the Bible claims to be God's commandments and directives seems absurd. Clearly that's how it is written. To question that seems to me to be silly.

Not only that, but any theist who takes that position can't then point to anyone as "rejecting" God or refusing to listen to or obey God if they reject the Bible as being nothing more than the opinions of men. Even "inspired opinions" because don't forget that many of these supposedly "inspired opinions" are claims of what this God is demanding and commanding of everyone.

This religion is a highly accusatory religion that most definitely tries very hard to condemn anyone who refuses to believe that it's the Word of God: Right up to and including the Christian New Testament.

John 3:
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

To pretend that this is just some guy's opinion but still represents the ultimatum of a God is ridiculous. It's either the ultimatum given by a God, or it isn't.

If it didn't come from God, then why should anyone give a hoot about it?

The idea that you can keep a religion alive by pretending that it doesn't claim to be God attempting to communicate, direct, and COMMAND men on precisely what they must do to appease him is, IMHO, nothing short of ridiculous.

If you're going to go this far you may as well just say that you don't personally believe anything the religion has to say, but you find it interesting and inspiring none the less.

Trying to hold up the idea that it can still be from a God whilst rejecting the parts that basically demand they are making claims on behalf of God seem totally absurd.

I mean, I certainly wouldn't buy into that perspective.

I think if you're going to go that far you may as well just say, "It appears to be an interested religious mythology that contains some inspiring ideals."

I think you can say the same thing about Greek Mythology. There were are a lot of inspiring tales in Greek Mythology too. And probably most man-made religion. I'm sure the folklore of the American Indians contains some positive inspiring stories as well. No need to assign these things to a God.

After all, why can't humans have inspiring thoughts and stories? They have certainly written novels and movie scripts that inspire great things. So this isn't anything we need to assign to any God.

I see nothing extraordinary or special about Hebrew mythology. So why associate that mythology with a God and nothing else? And if you're going to associate everything with "God" then why bother pointing to the Bible or Christianity as though it's anything special?

[Willum]

Well, yes.

It is not about picking and choosing lines of text.

It's about everyone picking and choosing, and banding together to kill, murder and genocide. A country of mandatory church-goers decide to eliminate Jews and Polish from the Earth. A bunch of folks listens to madmen and wipe out another tribe. Somebody uses God to say they own America.

I am all about believing what you want, I'll support anyone's beliefs, I'll support anything anyone can prove - but when folks start harming one another because of something they can't prove, but really, really believe, that's where the non-sense should stop.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 2 by Divine Insight]

How 'bout this. What if all ethical religions contain bits of the Truth? Why not stay in the tradition, (and Wiccans understand traditions) that one is most comfortable with? And find and put into practice all that is beautiful and good within that Tradition?
.
I think the Dalai Lama, (or was it Ghandi) would agree. Didn't one of them suggest that if one is a Christian, one should be the best Christian they should be, or if one is a Muslim, one should be the best Muslim one can be, Jew, Hindu, Bhuddist, etc.

I don't think any one Tradition has a monopoly on the Truth.

It just so happens that my Tradition, and the Traditon of most Westerners, is the Judeo-Christian Tradition.

Only Fundamentalists claim that their Traditon has a monoply on Truth.

And aren't you yourself somewhat eclectic? Taking and weaving various bits and pieces from Taosism, Buddhism, and Wicca?

Do you see nothing of value that Abrahamic religions might have to offer?

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 2 by Divine Insight]

How 'bout this. What if all ethical religions contain bits of the Truth? Why not stay in the tradition, (and Wiccans understand traditions) that one is most comfortable with? And find and put into practice all that is beautiful and good within that Tradition?
.
I think the Dalai Lama, (or was it Ghandi) would agree. Didn't one of them suggest that if one is a Christian, one should be the best Christian they should be, or if one is a Muslim, one should be the best Muslim one can be, Jew, Hindu, Bhuddist, etc.

I don't think any one Tradition has a monopoly on the Truth.

It just so happens that my Tradition, and the Traditon of most Westerners, is the Judeo-Christian Tradition.

Only Fundamentalists claim that their Traditon has a monoply on Truth.

And aren't you yourself somewhat eclectic? Taking and weaving various bits and pieces from Taosism, Buddhism, and Wicca?

Do you see nothing of value that Abrahamic religions might have to offer?

I totally agree with Willum. You are more than welcome to believe whatever you like.

So what then is the purpose of this thread in the Christianity and Apologetics debate forum?

Are you seeking permission or approval from others for your beliefs?

Or did you want to debate a position?

If you want to debate your position, then I say that there is no compelling grounds for it.

If you're just looking for approval to believe whatever you want, then I suggest you posted this in the wrong forum. Maybe try General Chat?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 2 by Divine Insight]

How 'bout this. What if all ethical religions contain bits of the Truth? Why not stay in the tradition, (and Wiccans understand traditions) that one is most comfortable with? And find and put into practice all that is beautiful and good within that Tradition?
.
I think the Dalai Lama, (or was it Ghandi) would agree. Didn't one of them suggest that if one is a Christian, one should be the best Christian they should be, or if one is a Muslim, one should be the best Muslim one can be, Jew, Hindu, Bhuddist, etc.

I don't think any one Tradition has a monopoly on the Truth.

It just so happens that my Tradition, and the Traditon of most Westerners, is the Judeo-Christian Tradition.

Only Fundamentalists claim that their Traditon has a monoply on Truth.

And aren't you yourself somewhat eclectic? Taking and weaving various bits and pieces from Taosism, Buddhism, and Wicca?

Do you see nothing of value that Abrahamic religions might have to offer?

I totally agree with Willum. You are more than welcome to believe whatever you like.

So what then is the purpose of this thread in the Christianity and Apologetics debate forum?

Are you seeking permission or approval from others for your beliefs?

Or did you want to debate a position?

If you want to debate your position, then I say that there is no compelling grounds for it.

If you're just looking for approval to believe whatever you want, then I suggest you posted this in the wrong forum. Maybe try General Chat?

No, not seeking permission, I am debating the proposition of whether or not taking the Bible literally, cherry picking, is reasonable , and why or why not.

I was comparing my approach to the eclectic approach you take of combining Taosim with Witchcraft, mining elements form both traditions.

I cherry pick from the Bible, you cherry pick from various other Traditions.

And I note your opinion of "no" You seem to be once again claiming that if one wants to embrace the Bible, one must embrace it completely. But I don't find your your arguments convincing, and I certainly don't need you to tell me where to post.

[sawthelight]

And really, what is wrong with a believer picking the portions that resonate and ring true for them, and deriving Spiritual inspiration from those portions?

Who can argue with that?

After all, very few (except for some maniacs) are inspired by the verses which advocate stoning people to death, keeping or beating slaves.

But millions are inspired by the belief that there is a God, who commanded us to "love thy neighbor as thy self".

I may not condone people stoning others to death but there are those who do act out violently to try and find God's favor. I feel as much empathy for some of these people as much as I feel empathy for the nerd who can't get any chicks. Except violent people you got to be more careful around.

I wouldn't dismiss the violent guy trying to follow God's commands because he is lost as anyone else. If you walked a mile in his shoes you wouldn't be so quick to call them maniacs. Although I agree to some degree with you. Still they may be brought up in an environment where violence was their strength due to childhood-conditioning. The father advocates it and dishes it out to the kid. The kid gets into confrontations at school. No one really tries to correct him properly. You can't just point the finger at the kid.

So he can be inspired by God along with the environment that shapes and molds him, say by attending church. If no one is willing to teach him the right way except through hypocritical sermons, he, not knowing, will follow their teachings to the detriment of himself. Along with a crazy father.

Still, will he believe in God? I think so. I know that person. He still believes in God and knows what he has done was wrong. What to do now? With a criminal record and a past he won't forget, he has to come to grips with reality. Still, it was the only option he had he could live with. It was the only way he knew. If only the Bible was right, perhaps he would be taken by God at this point, but that hasn't happened. It seems there was no God of Abraham. It seems he was deceived by the Bible and the people who propagate its message.

But maybe he was inspired by God through the Bible to see how much humility matters after you commit a violent act. These types of people are littered in the OT. Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon.

I feel for the violent guy as much as I feel for the nerd. Perhaps even the nerd at heart becomes the violent guy because he has to survive. He decides to go to God rather than stay as the rag that will be pushed in every conceivable direction under someone else's will. To fear no man but God. Perhaps that is inspiration in itself.

If I could help more nerds, I would. But sometimes you gotta take that leap if you want to make things happen. For good or worse, you can't fear man or women.

[Divine Insight]

No, not seeking permission, I am debating the proposition of whether or not taking the Bible literally, cherry picking, is reasonable , and why or why not.

Much of the Bible proclaims to be commandments from God.

So I would debate that "cherry picking" it makes no sense.

I was comparing my approach to the eclectic approach you take of combining Taosim with Witchcraft, mining elements form both traditions.

To the best of my knowledge there is nothing in Taoism or Witchcraft that proclaims to be the commandments, instructions, or demands of any God.

These spiritual philosophies allow for the freedom of personal views. In fact, in Buddhism Siddhartha Gautama actually taught people to take what makes sense to them and not to accept anything just because someone has made a claim including him. The Buddha never claimed to be giving commandments or directives of any God.

I cherry pick from the Bible, you cherry pick from various other Traditions.

Exactly, and there's no comparison because the traditions I cherry pick from don't claim to be speaking for any God. Neither do I claim that they have anything to do with any God.

In fact, I openly confess that as far as I'm concerned they are just mystical and spiritual philosophies that I entertain for what I consider to be emotional and psychological value even in a purely secular world. So I don't even required that there be a God for these traditions to have practical value. I use employ these traditions even if I knew with absolute certainty that Secular Naturalism was absolutely true.

And if other people want to say that I just have a make-believe "hobby" would AGREE!

I wouldn't argue with that in the slightest. But I still my be willing to debate that they have practical secular value even though there is no "God". And that of course would be "debatable". It might even ultimately come down to subjective opinion.

And I note your opinion of "no" You seem to be once again claiming that if one wants to embrace the Bible, one must embrace it completely. But I don't find your your arguments convincing, and I certainly don't need you to tell me where to post.

Well, if you want to debate your position I'll be glad to do that.

I suggest that the Bible proclaims to have commandments and directives that it claims come straight from God:

Here's just from one chapter in Leviticus:

How many times do you see the phrase: "I am the LORD your God"?

Lev.19

[2] Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.
[3] Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.
[4] Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.
[5] And if ye offer a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD, ye shall offer it at your own will.
[10] And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.
[25] And in the fifth year shall ye eat of the fruit thereof, that it may yield unto you the increase thereof: I am the LORD your God.
[28] Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.
[31] Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.
[34] But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
[36] Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have: I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt.

This is all through the whole Old Testament.

Here's some from a chapter in Numbers:

Num.10

[9] And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the LORD your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies.
[10] Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; that they may be to you for a memorial before your God: I am the LORD your God.


Here's another short except from Deuteronomy

Notice it stating "do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you".

Deut.5

[22] These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
[28] And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.
[32] Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left.
[33] Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess.

These aren't people just saying what they think God might be like. They are clearly proclaiming to be speaking for the Lord God Almighty.

You won't find anything close to this in Taoism, Buddhism, or Wicca.

In Wicca the closest thing you might find is the Wiccan Rede that proclaims "Do as you will but harm none". But it's not even clear whether this is a commandment of the Goddess or just a rede by which Wiccans have themselves chosen to live by.

Also, Wiccans range wildly in how they very their God and Goddess. Some view these concept as actual anthropomorphic deities as the Christians view Jesus and God, whilst other Wiccans think of them as just being abstract symbols that represent the Yin and Yang nature of our essence.

And Taoism doesn't even claim to have a "deity" at all. In fact, many people view Taoism as a glorified secular naturalism. Same with Buddhism. Many people mistakenly believe that Buddhists view the Buddha as a special incarnation of God, similar to how the Christians view Jesus. But actually that's not the case. They do believe in reincarnation however, and so they view the Buddha as being a highly spiritually evolved incarnation. But even so, the Buddha still isn't making "commandments" demanding how he expects people to behave. He basically just explains how Karma works.

So I don't see how your comparison of the Hebrew stories of a jealous deity who commands people how to behave precisely can be compared with abstract mystical philosophies like Taoism, etc.

[1213]

And really, what is wrong with a believer picking the portions that resonate and ring true for them, and deriving Spiritual inspiration from those portions?

Who can argue with that?

On basis of the Bible, the fundamental issue is, is person righteous, not does he believe everything that the Bible tells:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn't believe, I don't judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects me, and doesn't receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.
John 12:47-48

Bible also says:

Instead, test everything. Hold on to what is good, but keep away from every kind of evil.
First Epistle to the Thessalonians 5:21

If person understands that the ten commandments are good and right, I think he can be counted as righteous. But I am not God, or judge, so by my words you will not be saved.

After all, very few (except for some maniacs) are inspired by the verses which advocate stoning people to death, keeping or beating slaves.

It would be good also to notice that Bible is also history book. Not all that is said in history books are commandments for all people in future.

[Zzyzx]

.

If person understands that the ten commandments are good and right, I think he can be counted as righteous.

Christians may consider 'righteous' to mean obeying their commandments.

In the English language, however, 'righteous' is defined as:

1. characterized by uprightness or morality: 2. morally right or justifiable: 3. acting in an upright, moral way; virtuous: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/righteous

Notice that debates in the C&A sub-forum are conducted in the English language and are not restricted to religious language. Some other sub-forums are provided for those who address each other in religious terminology -- and in which religious definitions are appropriately used.