God is not more merciful than most humans.

[DanieltheDragon]

In order for humans to forgive we go through an emotional state and move past the slight.

In order for God to forgive he has to have a ritualistic blood sacrifice involving torture of a pure being to forgive even the slightest of offenses.


How can God be all powerful if he is restricted in his ability to forgive?

How can God be all merciful if there is a sacrifice restriction on his mercy?

Why does God have a lower capacity of forgiveness than humans?

[Zzyzx]

.

Reason why Jesus was killed seems to be that he forgave sins, which is why some people taught he is claiming to be God and deserves death.

Bible tales appear to indicate that Jesus was executed because he agitated in opposition to Roman and Jewish authorities.

[Mike Boone]

And it's simply absurd to say that a perfect God "repented it in his heart that he made man", because that is virtually a case of God, a being who is claimed to be perfect by all Christian ministers, actually admitting, according to Genesis, that he made a mistake. But, by definition, a perfect being can never make a mistake.

Hello and welcome Mike, and a healthy and prosperous New Year to you too.

Though I go along with your comments, made many times here, it is interesting to note that the God depicted is the one seen through the primitive lens of old nomads; we have 2-dimensional pictures in black-and-white - not unlike those in your fine Bible. Tyutchev, the Russian poet, said: " a thought once uttered is untrue."

So too with ideas about God. The original might be truth intact, of course.

marco, thanks for the welcome as I am a relative newbie here. But I'm not exactly
getting the Russian poet's statement that a thought becomes untrue, once it is uttered. That would mean that everything a human says is untrue unless he just speaks without thinking. And speaking without thinking is bound to just result in a lot of nonsense, which the poet's statement appears to be a prime example of.

What say you, marco? Oh, and I hope that you, along with everyone else on this interesting forum, have embarked on a most satisfying and safe 2017.

[Mike Boone]

.

Reason why Jesus was killed seems to be that he forgave sins, which is why some people taught he is claiming to be God and deserves death.

Bible tales appear to indicate that Jesus was executed because he agitated in opposition to Roman and Jewish authorities.

I agree with you, Zzyzx, that any claims that are to be taken seriously, must be supported by verifiable evidence. Because a lack of such evidence reduces claims to being little more than just hearsay. Take care and have a beneficial, and safe, 2017.

[bluethread]

.

Reason why Jesus was killed seems to be that he forgave sins, which is why some people taught he is claiming to be God and deserves death.

Bible tales appear to indicate that Jesus was executed because he agitated in opposition to Roman and Jewish authorities.

Though the word agitated is probably more of their emotional reaction to Him than the purpose of His actions, that is essentially correct and, in proper rabbinic fashion, His followers should do the same.

[1213]

.

Reason why Jesus was killed seems to be that he forgave sins, which is why some people taught he is claiming to be God and deserves death.

Bible tales appear to indicate that Jesus was executed because he agitated in opposition to Roman and Jewish authorities.

Please explain why you think so?

[JehovahsWitness]

God is*... Firstly I would like to point out that since the OP at no moment makes any attempt to modify any of his statements to reflect that he is expressing, not established scientifically proven fact but opinion I will do the same in my answer. In short, I feel confident that it is a given that the unspoken "ellipsis" is "since [in my opinon, according to my beliefs based on my personal interpretation of scripture, it seems to me that the God as depicted in the bible canon"] is..." was intended and my answer, like the OP will be presented under the same premise... I will thus be ignoring all calls that my statements be modified and will I not be responding to requests to justify how I *know* what God is or what he thinks until all corresponding posts in this thread do the same.

In order for humans to forgive we go through an emotional state and move past the slight.

In order for God to forgive he has to have a ritualistic blood sacrifice involving torture of a pure being to forgive even the slightest of offenses.


How can God be all powerful if he is restricted in his ability to forgive?

How can God be all merciful if there is a sacrifice restriction on his mercy?

Why does God have a lower capacity of forgiveness than humans?

It seems to me you are confusing "mercy[1] [ (mentioned in the thread lead) with "forgiveness" [2] with the bible teaching of the atonement for Adamic sin [3] (which according to God's standards is dependent on a corresponding sacrifice). None of which should be confused with the temple bound system of animal sacrifice [4] which served as a object lesson for the Israelites from the time of Moses though to the death of Jesus.

[1] Modification of legitimate punishment for a wrongdoing.
[2] Overlooking a wrong to reestablish or maintain good relations*
[3] The removal of the effects on humanity of inherited sin and death*
[4] The Jewish system of sacrificing animals for the atonement of sin regarding the Mosaic law.

"Torture" has never been a feature of any of the elements above

* For more information on the difference between forgiving of personal wrongs and atonement of sin see an earlier post I wrote below
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 307#827307

#1 How can God be all powerful if he is restricted in his ability to forgive?

Placing conditions on another in order to extend forgiveness (or mercy) no more restricts the one that requires the conditions be met than imposing a 30 kph/mph speed limit on drivers means the car is not able to/capable of going, faster. God can (has the "ability") forgive anybody anything, but his own righteous standards dictates he places conditions on people for them to merit that forgiveness. In short, returning to the analogy, God is able to drive as fast as he likes but he will not do so if it would endanger others; likewise God will not forgive if doing so jeopardizes the future of the one forgiven or others concerned.

#2 How can God be all merciful if there is a sacrifice restriction on his mercy?

God is not "all merciful" see question #1 above.

#3 Why does God have a lower capacity of forgiveness than humans?

God does not have a lower capacity of forgiveness than humans (see above)

[marco]

Reason why Jesus was killed seems to be that he forgave sins, which is why some people taught he is claiming to be God and deserves death.

Well he also cryptically said that before Abraham was, he is and that he'd destroy the Temple of God and in three days rebuild it. It seems to me that if you're going to play with such conundrums among unfriendly natives you have to expect dire consequences.

On the larger question of mercy, Jesus certainly displayed lots of kindness, but to no extraordinary degree. He was a bit snippy with the salesmen in the Temple and he could have been nicer to his family. If we're dealing with Yahweh's quality of mercy I think that the vast majority of human beings have the edge on him there. He is the moral equivalent of a dad who, seeing his son has messed up his room, cuts the boy's head off. (See Sodom and Gomorrah.)

[JehovahsWitness]

I'm very grateful that America's criminal justice system is not modeled after that absurd idea of punishing someone unjustly for the offenses of others, which that Christian doctrine states as being God's divine way of running things.

# QUESTION: Does the bible advocate the punishing of someone unjustly for the offenses of others?

2 KINGS 14:6
[T]he Book of the Law: "Parents must not be put to death for the sins of their children, nor children for the sins of their parents. Those deserving to die must be put to death for their own crimes."

#QUESTION: But are we not being punished for the sins of Adam according to the bible theology?

It would be more accurate to say we are suffering the "consequences" of their action rather than we are being punished. When we say 'punish' the emphasis is on the action of the punish-ER. God is not punishing us for the actions of Adam and Eve, he punished them but their children would be effected by THEIR punishment.

To illustrate: If a father is irresponisible and crashes the car, the whole family, including any children that weren't even alive when it happened, suffer. The family may go for years without a car, the children may have to walk to school, worse, one of the children may have been injured and suffer permanent pain. If the father is convicted of reckless driving and jailed the children no longer have a father at home incurring long term financial, emotional and psychological consequences.

In a similar way, humans a suffering the consequences of our first parents "crashing the family car" as is were. Adam and Eve lost our original paradise home and incurred physical, emotional and spiritual damage that every human that subsequently came would suffer in one way or another. The only way to avoid that is ... to not be born human. And the only way to avoid passing on the effects of their error is to not have children.

The plan was that we all descended from one couple, so we would ultimately be 'family'. A great plan until the parents of that family deliberately did something that meant that all their children would be born "defective". Not the children's fault but their problem nonetheless.

#QUESTION Couldn't a omnipotent God have devised a way to limit the consequences of our first parents actions to themselves alone?

God can of course do anything, but "anything" is not always the right thing to do. Our creator limits himself to only acting in a way that is just, good and beneficial (see Deut 32: 4). Thus when Adam and Eve sinned the only options open to a God that holds himself to such standards are those that ensure the well being and balance of the a universe that depended on him demonstrating himself to be trustworthy and honest.


JW

[marco]

QUESTION: Does the bible advocate the punishing of someone unjustly for the offenses of others?

2 KINGS 14:6
The Book of the Law: "Parents must not be put to death for the sins of their children, nor children for the sins of their parents. Those deserving to die must be put to death for their own crimes."

You quote this as though it supplied a definitive answer, JW. Try these two:

Exodus 34:7
Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation




Numbers 14:18 New International Version (NIV)

18 ‘The Lord is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.’



You NOW have to impose your own benign interpretation on these verses. You may say that the children are wicked and deserve punishment. But those who go strictly by what Scripture says will perhaps be a little confused.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 49 by marco]


I don't see that you have provided any explanation in your post for quoted verses. You have drawn them to my attention but above and beyond that I should look at them (which I have) do you feel inclined in your own words, to explain what you think "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children" means since it is not a common expression and you seem to be presenting the verses to make some kind of a point with regard to the punishing of children for the crimes of their parents. I feel confident you at least, will "go strictly by what scripture says" but what in your view is that verse saying?

In addition, going (as you say) "strictly by what the scripture says, I have a couple of questions (we don't want to add or subtract words from the text since we want to stick strictly to what the verse says and we certainly want to avoid imposing "benign interpretations" on these verses right?)

#1 Is the word "crime" actually ("strictly") mentioned in either verse?

#2 Is there a difference between a "sin" and a "crime"? If so, what is the difference?

#3 If we take it that all crimes are sins, are all sins crimes?

Thanks,

JW