Jesus most important sermon..

[Elijah John]

For debate:

1) Where in this most important sermon of Jesus, does he ever mention the supposed importance of believing in his impending sacrifice on the cross to "pay for" our sins in order to be saved?

2) If, as Paul suggests, believing in Jesus death on the cross as "payment for sins" is so important for one's salvation, why didn't Jesus teach this "most important doctrine," in his most important sermon?

[Elijah John]

Paul is effectively the way to heaven for many Christians. He is quoted again and again and his words have become elaborations on and even replacements for Christ's own teaching.

What are you talking about?

Christians claim to believe the scriptures, which state that those who believe in Jesus will be saved.

Paul taught the same.

Paul added conditions to Jesus message of simple repentance and doing the Father's will. Namely, Paul added the condition of believing in your heart that God raised Christ from the dead for salvation.

Jesus never taught this about his impending death and resurrection. Rather, Christ taught "blessed are the merciful" to ask for forgiveness, and to be willing to forgive others.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Yes it seems like Christianity has a life of its own. Jesus didn't explain all the mysteries of Christianity like Christology , incarnation. Why didn't Jesus Clarify atonement substitution and vicarious suffering, justification , circumcision, the Law, woman's place in the church and many other Christian issues.
Why did Jesus leave all this theology to Paul and the Greek Church Fathers.

[myth-one.com]

Paul is effectively the way to heaven for many Christians. He is quoted again and again and his words have become elaborations on and even replacements for Christ's own teaching.

What are you talking about?

Christians claim to believe the scriptures, which state that those who believe in Jesus will be saved.

Paul taught the same.

Paul added conditions to Jesus message of simple repentance and doing the Father's will. Namely, Paul added the condition of believing in your heart that God raised Christ from the dead for salvation.

Jesus never taught this about his impending death and resurrection. Rather, Christ taught "blessed are the merciful" to ask for forgiveness, and to be willing to forgive others.

Jesus never taught about believing in Him for salvation?

Really?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

[marco]

What are you talking about?

Christians claim to believe the scriptures, which state that those who believe in Jesus will be saved.

Paul taught the same.

Except that Christ kept pointing to the living father, while Paul points to the dead Christ. Paul played a variation on Christ's theme. Paul is an afterthought to Jesus, a quick summary of his goodness with concentration on his crucifixion and resurrection, themes that are not in Christ's teaching. So Paul has imposed his important addenda and these would seem to have replaced the sermons of Christ. Paul is not denying Christ, of course, but rephrasing, re-interpreting and effectively replacing.

[myth-one.com]

What are you talking about?

Christians claim to believe the scriptures, which state that those who believe in Jesus will be saved.

Paul taught the same.

Except that Christ kept pointing to the living father, while Paul points to the dead Christ.

Of course they did! That is the point at which the path to salvation changed.

Before Jesus' death, the path to salvation for mankind was following the laws or commandments of God. Christ taught that to those living at that time.

After Jesus' death, the only path to salvation became believing in Jesus as one's Savior.

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth (Hebrews 9:15-17)

A testator is a person who makes a will. "A testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth." Therefore, the New Testament became effective and the Old Testament vanished away as a will when Jesus Christ died on the cross. Once the New Testament became the active will, no one could gain eternal life by remaining sinless as required under the Old Testament. Thus, that is what Paul taught after Jesus death.

Upon creating a New Testament, the first covenant became the Old Testament:

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:13)

[Elijah John]

Paul is effectively the way to heaven for many Christians. He is quoted again and again and his words have become elaborations on and even replacements for Christ's own teaching.

What are you talking about?

Christians claim to believe the scriptures, which state that those who believe in Jesus will be saved.

Paul taught the same.

Paul added conditions to Jesus message of simple repentance and doing the Father's will. Namely, Paul added the condition of believing in your heart that God raised Christ from the dead for salvation.

Jesus never taught this about his impending death and resurrection. Rather, Christ taught "blessed are the merciful" to ask for forgiveness, and to be willing to forgive others.

Jesus never taught about believing in Him for salvation?

Really?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

You misquote me. I said Christ never taught about the necessity for "believing in your heart that God raised him from the dead" as a condition for salvation. Paul did. Paul added that condition.

But Paul had an unfair advantage, if the Damascus account is to be believed. He is said to have actually seen the risen Christ in a vision.

So...easy for him to say, to add that extra condition for salvation.

Most others have not had that advantage, including Jesus own contemporary audience.

[Elijah John]

That is the point at which the path to salvation changed.

So why should Christ's sucessors be believed over Christ himself? You've admitted they changed the path for salvation.

[marco]

Upon creating a New Testament, the first covenant became the Old Testament:

And do you think the analogy of testament and dead person applies to Christ who died, but rose again with plenty of opportunity to explain what his mission was?

Obviously dead people don't speak for themselves so you can argue that Paul interpreted Christ's will - except that Christ was perfectly able to do that himself in the 40 or so days he spent tying up loose ends. So the point being made is why did Paul take it upon himself to add to a message that Christ did not clarify when he had ample opportunity? It seems artificial to suppose that Christ spent his time teaching and showing the way but when he died then a new rule applied. As I say, he rose and that changes everything.

[myth-one.com]

That is the point at which the path to salvation changed.

So why should Christ's sucessors be believed over Christ himself? You've admitted they changed the path for salvation.

The Bible consists of The Old Testament & The New Testament. That is where the path to salvation is changed.

Old Testament -- man is responsible for his own salvation by his acts to fulfill the law.

New Testament -- man's sins are forgiven if one accepts Jesus as his or her Savior from the wages of their sins.

If the gospels written by Paul are part of the scriptures, then they were inspired by God Himself.

Jesus and Paul compliment each other -- they are not at odds.