Divine intervention for proper understanding

[Justin108]

Everything, possibly short of a telephone directory, is open for debate. An omnipotent God may well have good reason for inspiring a book that requires His own intervensioin to be accurately understood as He wants.

In this regard the book of Matthew in the bible contains the following observation attributed to Jesus Christ; when asked why he (Jesus) didn't speak in plain straightforward terms but rather in illustrations (the interpretation of which would be open to debate) his reply is recorded below:

"“Why is it you speak to them by the use of illustrations?� 11 In reply he said: “To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted. 12 For whoever has, more will be given him and he will be made to abound; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations, because, looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, neither do they get the sense of it"

IF the Bible is accepted as the word of GOD, it is accepted as clear.

Any unclearness then resides in the creature. Every statement that coincides perfectly with the character and plans of GOD can be perverted and subverted to mean the opposite of HIS meaning, causing confusion in some...in other words, nothing is sacrosanct to those locked in sin. That the world of GOD is taken to be incomprehensible to those locked in sin is the orthodox position of Christianity.

Christians often claim (or imply) that in order to properly understand the Bible, one needs divine guidance and that the reason atheists find flaws in the Bible is simply because they lack this divine guidance as they do not allow the Holy Spirit to guide them.

But how do Christians know that their disapproval and rejection of the Quran is not for similar reasons? What if you reject the Quran because you do not allow the Spirit of Allah to guide you in the proper understanding of Islam? Why is the rejection of other holy texts due to their content perfectly justified, but the rejection of the Bible due to its content is a flaw in the reader? How can you be sure your rejection of the Quran is not the result of your misunderstanding of the Quran?

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 15 by rikuoamero]

Well...can we be blamed for thinking such, given what the Bible says? It has tales like God parting the sea, flooding the planet, creating all life, even resurrecting the dead.

Can't be blamed, no. But you can be blamed for not being open-minded to alternatives.

Should we also be 'open-minded' to alternatives offered by religions promoting one of the other thousands of 'gods'? Or only open minded to stories about the Bible God? If the latter, WHY?

[theophile]

[Replying to Zzyzx]

Should we also be 'open-minded' to alternatives offered by religions promoting one of the other thousands of 'gods'? Or only open minded to stories about the Bible God? If the latter, WHY?

Like I've said all along here, I am inclined to think that all traditions have wisdom that is worth listening for, and being open to.

Wisdom is not the sole claim of the biblical traditions.

[theophile]

[Replying to post 20 by postroad]

It seems that Jesus was assuming an awful lot of divine authority for a human being.

Sure. He is in the image of God. But again, that is human fulfillment.

The question is still begged whether or not a pure divine intervention is required, or if we have the means and power on our own, i.e. our innate human potential, to speak and discern the truth, and to help our fellows do so.

[1213]

If I said "I think I understand the Bible. It's just a book written by bronze-aged men who didn't understand how the world works" you would surely say "no, you do not understand the Bible".

It depends on why you would make that claim. Probably I could show you why you are wrong.

So saying "I think i understand the Quran" is clearly not enough. Thinking you understand a text does not mean you understand it.

I agree with that. As Jesus said “If I testify about myself, my witness is not valid� John 5:31.

It would be interesting to know what I don’t understand about the Quran, if someone is claiming that I don’t understand it.

Allegedly Quran is like repair kit for the Bible that “is skewed�

- According to who?

For example:
“…Although Muslims believe that the original Torah and Gospel given to Moses and Jesus respectively, peace be upon them, were divinely inspired and perfect, what we have today of these Scriptures is not the same as the original revelation…�
http://www.manyprophetsonemessage.com/2 ... the-bible/

2. How do you know others do not properly understand the Bible?

When they make claims about the Bible that are obviously wrong or false.

There is a HUGE difference, namely that the Quran does not recognize Jesus as the son of God

Even if we would agree with that, it is only small part of the Bible and as I said, not much difference. Quran says Jesus is God’s prophet, which is in line with the Bible. And Quran says we should believe what Jesus says. So, every Christian, if listens Jesus, does as Quran says.

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.
Surat An-Nis�' 4:171
http://quran.com/4/171

[Zzyzx]

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How do you know others do not properly understand the Bible?

When they make claims about the Bible that are obviously wrong or false.

Who decides what claims about the Bible are 'wrong or false'? By what authority? By whom authorized or empowered?

Such decisions are OPINIONS. What one person claims is wrong or false another person claims is true.

[Justin108]

I did not mean that we would be right to discern that these religions teach the wisdom of the world, and therefore are to be rejected. I simply meant only if we properly concluded this after close analysis, then they would be susceptible to the commandment you cited...

If you believe the Bible, then you're forced to conclude this (or that these gods are demons or some sort of evil spirits).

So which is it? Are these religions wrong for worshiping many gods? Or is the Bible wrong for commanding us to worship no god other than Jehovah?

[Justin108]

It depends on why you would make that claim. Probably I could show you why you are wrong.

And every problem you have with the Quran, a Muslim would be able to "show you why you are wrong"

It would be interesting to know what I don’t understand about the Quran, if someone is claiming that I don’t understand it.

Well for one, you call it an attempt to fix the Bible despite no mention of that in the Quran

For example:
“…Although Muslims believe that the original Torah and Gospel given to Moses and Jesus respectively, peace be upon them, were divinely inspired and perfect, what we have today of these Scriptures is not the same as the original revelation…�

You have one quote from one source, and now you believe this is true about the entirety of Islam? What makes you think that the author of this article has any authority over Islam? If I find an article from a Christian on the internet, can I go around accusing all Christians of thinking the same?

When they make claims about the Bible that are obviously wrong or false.

If I said the Bible contains contradictions, you will call my claim "obviously false" despite the fact that I can support my claim. This does not mean my claim is "obviously false". All this means is that you disagree with my claim.

To demonstrate: the Bible contains contradictions. Do you agree?

Even if we would agree with that, it is only small part of the Bible and as I said, not much difference

Jesus' divinity is arguably the most important part of the New Testament

Quran says Jesus is God’s prophet, which is in line with the Bible.

The Bible says Jesus is the son of God, which is not in line with the Quran

[theophile]

[Replying to post 26 by Justin108]

If you believe the Bible, then you're forced to conclude this (or that these gods are demons or some sort of evil spirits).

So which is it? Are these religions wrong for worshiping many gods? Or is the Bible wrong for commanding us to worship no god other than Jehovah?

You're being too black and white. Things aren't done because the bible says it and "I believe the bible" in some kind of pure authoritarianism. As if belief subjects us to it.

If I believe the bible, it is because of what it says, sure, but more precisely because I think what it says is right based on my own rational grounds and worldview. "Belief" is more affirmation of the bible than subjugation to it...

As such, I would hold any text that accords with what it says and / or my own worldview in as high an esteem.

Thus, affirming God means affirming God wherever I find God, in whatever shape or form. It means looking beyond the trappings of the particular words used to convey that God, affirming what accords and yes, rejecting anything that does not accord but nevertheless claims to be of God.

That is the commandment you keep citing. And I think it is right, again, not simply because the bible says it, but because that's the only way I could possibly have coherence in my worldview, and I affirm the bible for its similar statement.

Also, you're really stuck on God being this singular thing. I'm not so sure about that. The only way you can do that is by erasing the differences between all the forms God takes in scripture: Yahweh, Jesus, Elohim...

Even Elohim, the name of God in Genesis 1, is plural. Consider God's statement as God creates: "Let us..." Consider God's creation of humankind as man and woman in the image of God, indicating plurality and difference in the Godhead that get's reflected by human genders...

Yes, united in some way, but there is something more going on there. And once we start to break from some of the strict thinking you are doing, I at least find great comfort in God being a unified set of voices. Voices. As in, the voice speaking through the Koran or the Vedas may very well be God. Again, to my point all along.

In short, loosen up a bit. There's no reason to be so strict. (Or at least, give me a more compelling one.)

[Justin108]

rejecting anything that does not accord but nevertheless claims to be of God.

How would you know what accords to God? Do you look at the Bible to find out what accords to God? Do you look at the Hindu Vedas to find out what accords to God? Which holy text should one look at to find out what the real God is like?

[theophile]

[Replying to Justin108]

How would you know what accords to God? Do you look at the Bible to find out what accords to God? Do you look at the Hindu Vedas to find out what accords to God? Which holy text should one look at to find out what the real God is like?

My answer stays the same. I look to various sources, the bible is one of which, for sure, but more broadly my experiences in the world. I ask myself, what is it that is most worthy to be called divine? That is deserving of that status? What attributes? What way of life? What convictions? What relationships with other human beings and things in the world? The bible has helped shape that, again, but it is not authoritative.

Once a coherent character starts to form, then that's something that can be evaluated against anything, the bible included, to see if it accords. To challenge it and be challenged by it. To improve one's understanding of what is, in fact, worthy of such a status (if anything).

So you ask the wrong question. There is no one text, which has been my position all along. While I may find great resonance with the biblical God, and have focused my attention there to deepen my views, that is not the one and only answer. And I've never said it is. Throw the bible away if it is getting in the way.