Deep thinking

[Waterfall]

Hello everybody

I have some questions for atheist and theist.

Why do atheist put children into the world?

Nobody wants to be born without legs. Nobody wants a terrible disease. Nobody wants to be murdered.

But all these things happens in this world.

If atheist say that there isn't anything after death, then they are undermining there own ability to put children into the world, because there is nobody (intelligent) who wants to be born into that kind of world.

Have atheist thought about that?

I don´t think Christopher Hitchens (R.I.P.) or Richard Dawkins have thought about that...

Now (some) theist also have a problem, because why do they put children into the world, if God is sending them to a eternal hell?

I think the christian worldview is very strange, because if I put 10 children into the world, then God will send 9 of them to a eternal hell.

Very strange and not a good reason for me to put 10 children into the world.

Maybe I only should put one child into the world...but then I won't be doing Gods will...because God needs 10 children...because 9 have to go to a eternal hell...because that is what the good book say...well...what shall I do?

If I only put 1 child into the world then I destroy this book...because this book is based on me putting many children into the world.

Isn't it?

In fact we could blow the world apart today and the book would have failed completely...but why should we blow the world apart...just to prove a point.

That would be insane...but then again...we are going to die anyway...so why not go out whit a big bang...and stop the madness on earth.

Why do we keep on putting children into the world? Don´t we know the price for that action? How many children will suffer? Are we willing to pay the price for a day more on earth? Who are selling life? Who are buying life?

Do you wanner be born into a world where there is no heaven...where there is no place to put your dead parents? Your dead wife/hosbond...Your dead children...Your dead friends...Yourself.

Don´t we have a good reason to talk about a soul?

Maybe people like Putin don´t have a good reason to talk about a soul...maybe a soul is a scaring thought for them...because they have a lot to answar for.

So there are also a good reason not to talk about a soul...

But here we all should remember that God have a great plan for us all.

Maybe Putin haven´t heard about the great plan...justice...compassion...understanding...forgivenes...love...development...reincarnation.

Lets talk about reincarnation...because I don´t think we have got this right...are the soul created? How many souls are there? How many bodies are there? Are there more souls than bodies?

Now we are back to some kind of strange thinking...because every time there is created a body...then a soul have to fall down from heaven...and so we are in control of that fall...because we can stop putting bodies into the world.

Do the soul fall down from heaven or do it chose to come down from heaven or do it start from earth and then is on a road to heaven? Or? Where did Jesus come from? Heaven? Where did Hitler come from? Hell?

A thought on all this helltalk...because if God (the almighty) have empty the hellworld for resident, then why are we still talking about a hell? Maybe there was a hellworld at one point in time? Maybe it is gone now? Maybe Satan have turn around? Maybe Satan is asking for forgivenes? How great is God?

Who created the human body? Why don´t animals have a soul? When did God connect a soul to the human body? And why? What is the good news? That we have got it all roung? What is the real story about life on earth? Where do we come from? Where are we going? What should we tell our children? See you in heaven? Who is writting the story on earth?

Together we can change the world...but how? What are we going to teach our children? Be a good son/daughter? Well...maybe we should be a good father/mother first?

What kind of world are we putting children into?

Lets say I put 3 women and 6 men on the planet...then I have created a problem for them, because what are they going to do? 1 women and 2 men...is that aloud? What shall they do?

Just thinking out loud...

Here at the end of all this thinking I have to say that my english aint to good, so I hope you will bear with me on this.

And merry christmas to you all

[Divine Insight]

What is your argument based on? That there is no heaven?

My argument is based on the fact that there is no reason to believe that any "heaven" exists. And especially not based on claims from ancient Christian rumors of Jesus. We can demonstrate that those rumors are necessarily false in what they claim.

What would be a perfect world in your eyes?

How about this imaginary "heaven" that you keep talking about? Surely that would be a perfect world? And therefore if it exists why aren't we already living in it?

It can't be claimed that we need to "earn" our way in because that would deny the whole Jesus story. Especially if we keep the writings of Paul.

If we could earn our way into heaven there would be no need for Jesus.

We can´t create heaven...thats not our job...but we can say yes to heaven and live our life in that context...

What do you think a person would need to do in order to say "yes" to heaven?

Can you be specific and list out ALL requirements in detail in a numerical list?

Thank you.

Also, please note where you have obtained this information and how you know that it's accurate and truthful.

why should we say no to heaven? Because we haven´t seen it? Is that a good reason to say no?

How do we go about saying "no" to heaven?

Can you be specific and list out ALL requirements in detail in a numerical list?

Thank you.

Also, please note where you have obtained this information and how you know that it's accurate and truthful.

Why can´t we see heaven? Because we are here on earth? Because heaven dosen´t exist? What is the reason?

Are these supposed to be rhetorical questions?

Shouldn't you be telling me the answers?

You seem to be the one who is claiming to know that a heaven exists and how we can go about saying "Yes" or "No" to it.

Thus far I see no reason to believe that a heaven exist, nor would I have a clue how to say either "Yes" or "No" to it even if I wanted to.

You'll have to clear up the details on that first.

Thanks.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 1 by Waterfall]

Why do atheist put children into the world?

Nobody wants to be born without legs. Nobody wants a terrible disease. Nobody wants to be murdered.

But all these things happens in this world.

If atheist say that there isn't anything after death, then they are undermining there own ability to put children into the world, because there is nobody (intelligent) who wants to be born into that kind of world.

Atheism has nothing to do with having or not having babies.


Some atheists have babies, and some atheists don't.
I don't know what not believing in gods has to do with that.

The world, with all of it's violence and all of it's ugliness is also the same world with all of it's beauty and all of it's peace. This has nothing to do with god or goddess beliefs.

[Bust Nak]

What I´m talking about is more like...either we all are in or we all are out...

The problem is that if you say yes then we all go in...its all or nothing...right?

Much harder question to answer. Do we as a collective, suffer more than it's worth in happiness? I am going to go with yes, since we on the whole, are still happy to have babies.

[Waterfall]

What is your argument based on? That there is no heaven?

My argument is based on the fact that there is no reason to believe that any "heaven" exists. And especially not based on claims from ancient Christian rumors of Jesus. We can demonstrate that those rumors are necessarily false in what they claim.

What would be a perfect world in your eyes?

How about this imaginary "heaven" that you keep talking about? Surely that would be a perfect world? And therefore if it exists why aren't we already living in it?

It can't be claimed that we need to "earn" our way in because that would deny the whole Jesus story. Especially if we keep the writings of Paul.

If we could earn our way into heaven there would be no need for Jesus.

We can´t create heaven...thats not our job...but we can say yes to heaven and live our life in that context...

What do you think a person would need to do in order to say "yes" to heaven?

Can you be specific and list out ALL requirements in detail in a numerical list?

Thank you.

Also, please note where you have obtained this information and how you know that it's accurate and truthful.

why should we say no to heaven? Because we haven´t seen it? Is that a good reason to say no?

How do we go about saying "no" to heaven?

Can you be specific and list out ALL requirements in detail in a numerical list?

Thank you.

Also, please note where you have obtained this information and how you know that it's accurate and truthful.

Why can´t we see heaven? Because we are here on earth? Because heaven dosen´t exist? What is the reason?

Are these supposed to be rhetorical questions?

Shouldn't you be telling me the answers?

You seem to be the one who is claiming to know that a heaven exists and how we can go about saying "Yes" or "No" to it.

Thus far I see no reason to believe that a heaven exist, nor would I have a clue how to say either "Yes" or "No" to it even if I wanted to.

You'll have to clear up the details on that first.

Thanks.

My thinking is mainly coming from this book.

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/

Can I say that it is true? The book makes claims about the universe that could be wrong...I´m not a astronomer.

But I believe, at the moment, that the universe looks like that (why shouldn´t it?).

With regard to "earn"...then we can´t "earn" heaven...but we can have a easy journey to heaven.

Like we can have a easy or hard journey to paradice on earth.

Thats my understanding.

With regard to a list...then it is very short...don´t say no to heaven...

But its a little tricky...because...do we wanner be Gods children? Do we have a choise? We have been put on a train to heaven...so...what can we choose? To step of the train? Say to God...annihilate me...

With regard to the questions...then I see to possibilities...there is no heaven or we are on a journey to heaven...

That there should be no heaven dosen´t make sense to me...so...what is the reason that we can´t see heaven? Maybe you have a good answer to that question? Its not a rhetorically question...

For me its like...when I´m here on earth, then I´m not in heaven...and when I´m in heaven, then I´m not here on earth

My focuse is on this world...what is going on here?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 74 by Waterfall]



[center]
Trusting a psychic when it comes to astronomy instead of an actual reputable astronomer is an extremely poor tactic if one wants to learn about astronomy[/center]

My thinking is mainly coming from this book.

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/

Can I say that it is true? The book makes claims about the universe that could be wrong...I´m not a astronomer.

You don't have to be an astronomer to evaluate those claims. There are reputable astronomers out there who actually can answer your questions, if they know. If they don't know, a reputable scientist will say so, and not pretend to know.

And there are people in the forum who will be quite happy to help you do the research you need to find out if what the psychic says is true or not. Learn to ask.

I suggest that you put down the weirdest possible ideas for a while and take a look see at what accepted science is like first. You might be just wasting your time with "psychic" drivel. As you admit, you can't even evaluate the book. Don't get fooled just because some psychic gives an easy answer. Science might be much harder to understand, but it's also much much more reliable. Go one step at a time, and question your beliefs. Always.

In other words, learn to become a better skeptic.

But I believe, at the moment, that the universe looks like that (why shouldn´t it?).

You seem to want to believe in something magical so much that you are willing to believe too quickly, without evidence, due to the fact that you read. There are lots of books out there. Some are way better than others.

You can indeed believe anything you like, but is that how you are going to evaluate claims the rest of your life? Is "why shouldn't it" going to be your main method of figuring out if things are true or not?

I think you can do much better than "Why not"? ( and probably do already in most other areas of your life ) If you don't really know something, the appropriate response isn't "why not this book here", but "I don't know". I have to say, that for all too many people the second statement is less fun. But it's more honest.

I don't know why you would want to deceive yourself when you should know that most "psychics" make bogus pronouncements. Science has a way better track record on astronomy, my friend. You seem to insist on the least reliable information possible, and believe that, for some reason.

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 1 by Waterfall]

Why do atheist put children into the world?

Nobody wants to be born without legs. Nobody wants a terrible disease. Nobody wants to be murdered.

But all these things happens in this world.

If atheist say that there isn't anything after death, then they are undermining there own ability to put children into the world, because there is nobody (intelligent) who wants to be born into that kind of world.

Atheism has nothing to do with having or not having babies.


Some atheists have babies, and some atheists don't.
I don't know what not believing in gods has to do with that.

The world, with all of it's violence and all of it's ugliness is also the same world with all of it's beauty and all of it's peace. This has nothing to do with god or goddess beliefs.

I don´t think a theist would put children into this world if there was no God...but that is something you would have to ask another thiest about.

I have said that I wouldn´t...

Have this world nothing to do with a God? Is that not a claim? If God has created the universe, then you can´t say that God has nothing to do with this world...

The problem with this world is not the animals (we have them under control)...but with mankind. They are making the world a ugley place. The world in it self is not a terrible place for us. It is not heaven...but it has many beautiful places.

Are you saying that all the wars has nothing to do with gods?

How will you make your child happy? If your child can´t find a wife/hosbond? Bad luck? How can it be bad luck if you know there is not a wife/hosbond for them? Lets say all the theist say...we will not merry a atheist...then your are left with yourself...we can close the door...just to see what you will do...we can close a lot of doors...just to see what you will do...we can give you a country...just to see what you will do...we can count all the atheist for you...200.000 women...800.000 men...what will you do? Adapt? 1 women and 4 men?

What are you claiming?

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 74 by Waterfall]



[center]
Trusting a psychic when it comes to astronomy instead of an actual reputable astronomer is an extremely poor tactic if one wants to learn about astronomy[/center]

My thinking is mainly coming from this book.

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/

Can I say that it is true? The book makes claims about the universe that could be wrong...I´m not a astronomer.

You don't have to be an astronomer to evaluate those claims. There are reputable astronomers out there who actually can answer your questions, if they know. If they don't know, a reputable scientist will say so, and not pretend to know.

And there are people in the forum who will be quite happy to help you do the research you need to find out if what the psychic says is true or not. Learn to ask.

I suggest that you put down the weirdest possible ideas for a while and take a look see at what accepted science is like first. You might be just wasting your time with "psychic" drivel. As you admit, you can't even evaluate the book. Don't get fooled just because some psychic gives an easy answer. Science might be much harder to understand, but it's also much much more reliable. Go one step at a time, and question your beliefs. Always.

In other words, learn to become a better skeptic.

But I believe, at the moment, that the universe looks like that (why shouldn´t it?).

You seem to want to believe in something magical so much that you are willing to believe too quickly, without evidence, due to the fact that you read. There are lots of books out there. Some are way better than others.

You can indeed believe anything you like, but is that how you are going to evaluate claims the rest of your life? Is "why shouldn't it" going to be your main method of figuring out if things are true or not?

I think you can do much better than "Why not"? ( and probably do already in most other areas of your life ) If you don't really know something, the appropriate response isn't "why not this book here", but "I don't know". I have to say, that for all too many people the second statement is less fun. But it's more honest.

I don't know why you would want to deceive yourself when you should know that most "psychics" make bogus pronouncements. Science has a way better track record on astronomy, my friend. You seem to insist on the least reliable information possible, and believe that, for some reason.

Maybe you are reading me wrong? Why not or why shouldn´t it...is there a difference? Why don´t you ask...that sounds interesting? Lets hear what the book claims about the universe?

But lets put that away...

I can only point to this in english...

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-ko03.htm

And to this visuel model...

http://vandrermotlyset.net/Om%20univers ... l%204.html

The central sun is not visible.

The point or idea is that everything are in a circuit...with the central sun as it center...the whole universe is circling around this central sun...Gods kingdom/heaven.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 76 by Waterfall]


Not understanding the difference between theist and atheist.

I don´t think a theist would put children into this world if there was no God...but that is something you would have to ask another thiest about.

By definition, theists believe in gods or goddesses. So, NO theist would EVER believe that "there is no God". If someone doesn't believe there is a god, they are atheists.

________________

The difference between a theist and an atheist:

• Belief in gods or goddesses = theist
  No belief in gods or goddesses = atheist

________________

Have this world nothing to do with a God? Is that not a claim? If God has created the universe, then you can´t say that God has nothing to do with this world...

People decide to have babies for many reasons. Perhaps some of them do so for religious reasons. Perhaps not.

In any case, even atheists sometimes decide to have babies. I did, for example, and never gave a thought about "Oh my ... how can I have babies if there is no god?"

The problem with this world is not the animals (we have them under control)...but with mankind.

If only we could get rid of those pesky people.

They are making the world a ugley place.

You seem to have a very pessimistic view of humanity. I suggest that you do some study of the many ways that humans create beauty. And if you are talking about humanity, you are PART of the "they". If you want a more beautiful world, get to work.

The world in it self is not a terrible place for us. It is not heaven...but it has many beautiful places.

If you study a bit of architecture, you will notice that some of those "places" are man-made places.

Are you saying that all the wars has nothing to do with gods?

___________________

This is what I believe about wars and gods and goddesses:

• 1. I have no reason to believe there are real gods and goddesses.
  2. I have a fantastic amount of evidence that people believe in gods and goddesses.
  3. If people go to war due to "gods or goddesses" it's because of their beliefs about gods and goddesses, not because there are real gods or goddesses.

___________________

How will you make your child happy?

I did my very best to make sure that they would have the tools to take responsibility for their own happiness.

If your child can´t find a wife/hosbond? Bad luck?

You seem to imagine that the only way to be happy in life is to get married. I'm not sure that you mean that.

What are you claiming?

Atheism has nothing to do with having or not having babies.


You don't seem to understand what atheism means.

If you need help with that, many forum members can help you out.
A good English dictionary can be of help, too.

It's not really all that complicated.

Atheism means a lack of belief in gods or goddesses.
That's it.

Atheism has NOTHING at all to do with having babies or not.
Some religions insist on procreating as many babies as possible in order to have as many people as possible religiously indoctrinated into that particular religion.

Encouraging breeding is a very common religious tactic to promote the "faith". Kids don't have much say in the matter as to what religion they are raised in. Most kids, never get out.

Comparative religion helps get them out. Learning skeptical thinking skills also helps.
From the way you are talking, I would suspect that you are stuck in the "box" of your own particular brand of religious indoctrination.. that does seem to promote breeding believers.

Atheists, of course, don't have that kind of pressure. We are free to choose our own paths to happiness. Married or not. Babies or not, it's our choice and the idea of a "god or goddess" never enters into our decisions. Not about marriage, not about how to be happy and certainly not about having babies.

You have a very strange set of notions about atheists.

Stick around, there are many of us in here.
We can set your straight about us.

You don't have to continue believing religious propaganda about us. Here we are.
If you want answers.. ask.

Happy to help.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 77 by Waterfall]




[center]The psychic says it, so it's true[/center]

Maybe you are reading me wrong?

That's entirely possible.
Sorry if I did.

I think you said that you believe what the psychic says because... "why shouldn't it?"

Why not or why shouldn´t it...is there a difference?

Not very much, no.

If I say I have a million dollars in my pocket, and you ask for evidence, would you be convinced by :


"Why not?"

Or

"Why shouldn't it?"


If you think my bank manager would be much impressed by that kind of reasoning, I suggest you make a plea for me. I could use a million bucks.

But semantically, I don't seem much difference in meaning between "why not" and "why shouldn't it".

Why don´t you ask...that sounds interesting? Lets hear what the book claims about the universe?

Because when I want to learn about astronomy, I don't usually waste my time with psychics.

The central sun is not visible.

Oh, so that's how we know it's there?
By not being able to see it?

Or is it that the psychic can't be wrong?

The point or idea is that everything are in a circuit...with the central sun as it center...the whole universe is circling around this central sun...Gods kingdom/heaven.

Sounds "heavenly".
Now what?

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 76 by Waterfall]


Not understanding the difference between theist and atheist.

I don´t think a theist would put children into this world if there was no God...but that is something you would have to ask another thiest about.

By definition, theists believe in gods or goddesses. So, NO theist would EVER believe that "there is no God". If someone doesn't believe there is a god, they are atheists.

________________

The difference between a theist and an atheist:

• Belief in gods or goddesses = theist
  No belief in gods or goddesses = atheist

________________

Have this world nothing to do with a God? Is that not a claim? If God has created the universe, then you can´t say that God has nothing to do with this world...

People decide to have babies for many reasons. Perhaps some of them do so for religious reasons. Perhaps not.

In any case, even atheists sometimes decide to have babies. I did, for example, and never gave a thought about "Oh my ... how can I have babies if there is no god?"

The problem with this world is not the animals (we have them under control)...but with mankind.

If only we could get rid of those pesky people.

They are making the world a ugley place.

You seem to have a very pessimistic view of humanity. I suggest that you do some study of the many ways that humans create beauty. And if you are talking about humanity, you are PART of the "they". If you want a more beautiful world, get to work.

The world in it self is not a terrible place for us. It is not heaven...but it has many beautiful places.

If you study a bit of architecture, you will notice that some of those "places" are man-made places.

Are you saying that all the wars has nothing to do with gods?

___________________

This is what I believe about wars and gods and goddesses:

• 1. I have no reason to believe there are real gods and goddesses.
  2. I have a fantastic amount of evidence that people believe in gods and goddesses.
  3. If people go to war due to "gods or goddesses" it's because of their beliefs about gods and goddesses, not because there are real gods or goddesses.

___________________

How will you make your child happy?

I did my very best to make sure that they would have the tools to take responsibility for their own happiness.

If your child can´t find a wife/hosbond? Bad luck?

You seem to imagine that the only way to be happy in life is to get married. I'm not sure that you mean that.

What are you claiming?

Atheism has nothing to do with having or not having babies.


You don't seem to understand what atheism means.

If you need help with that, many forum members can help you out.
A good English dictionary can be of help, too.

It's not really all that complicated.

Atheism means a lack of belief in gods or goddesses.
That's it.

Atheism has NOTHING at all to do with having babies or not.
Some religions insist on procreating as many babies as possible in order to have as many people as possible religiously indoctrinated into that particular religion.

Encouraging breeding is a very common religious tactic to promote the "faith". Kids don't have much say in the matter as to what religion they are raised in. Most kids, never get out.

Comparative religion helps get them out. Learning skeptical thinking skills also helps.
From the way you are talking, I would suspect that you are stuck in the "box" of your own particular brand of religious indoctrination.. that does seem to promote breeding believers.

Atheists, of course, don't have that kind of pressure. We are free to choose our own paths to happiness. Married or not. Babies or not, it's our choice and the idea of a "god or goddess" never enters into our decisions. Not about marriage, not about how to be happy and certainly not about having babies.

You have a very strange set of notions about atheists.

Stick around, there are many of us in here.
We can set your straight about us.

You don't have to continue believing religious propaganda about us. Here we are.
If you want answers.. ask.

Happy to help.

How will atheist survive without having babies...are they gonna steal our babies

Are you gonna teach your children that life has nothing to do with having babies or sex...are you gonna turn your children into monks?

You can have sex...you can´t have sex...be a monk? Adapt?

I´m just trying to see what life is about for an atheist...