JW organization.

[Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to:

-vote
-celebrate birthdays
-celebrate Christmas or Easter
-donate or receive blood transfusions.

And if any JW openly persists in doing these things[edit to add publicly], they will be shunned or disfellowshipped, [edit to add or otherwise admonished or disciplined.]

For debate,

1) what do any of these check-list prohibitions have to do with Christianity?

2) And are any of these prohibitions compatible with the idea of Christian freedom?

3) Are these prohibitions arbitrary or legalistic?

4) And could Jehvoah's Witness as an organization flourish without these particular prohibitions and still honor God?

Please address any or all of the above.

[JehovahsWitness]

RESPONSE: So are you now trying to argue that the "many" Matthew claimed were resurrected at Jesus' death and showed themselves to many residents of Jerusalem really weren't going to die anyway?

No I am saying that your statement that the bible claims people can only die once, was wrong.







I have already written extensively regarding my understanding of Matthew 27: 52-53:

QUESTION: But does Matthew 27:52 refer to the a "mass resurrection" ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 289#840289

Question: Who reported the events of Matthew 27:52 in Jerusalem?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 419#840419

[polonius]

Matthew 2:23 He went and dwelt in a town called Nazareth, so that what had been spoken through the prophets might be fulfilled, “He shall be called a Nazorean.�

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/nazareth/
This city is not mentioned in the Old Testament.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_2:23#Problems
The difficulty with the brief quote "he will be called a Nazarene" is that it occurs nowhere in the Old Testament prophets, or any other extant source.

The original Koine Greek, according to Westcott and Hort, reads:
και ελθων κατωκησεν εις πολιν λεγομενην
ναζα�ετ οπως πλη�ωθη το �ηθεν δια των
π�οφητων οτι ναζω�αιος κληθησεται

In the Authorized King James Version of the Bible the text reads:
And he came and dwelt in a city
called Nazareth: that it might be
fulfilled which was spoken by the
prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

OBSERVATION: Is it seriously claimed that Matthew's Gospel was divinely inspired and hence cannot contain errors?

[William]

William asked

Was the bible a complete package by the time these words attributed to Timothy were composed?

RESPONSE: No. The last addition to the Bible is the story of the woman taken in adultery in John's gospel. It was added in the 4th century and isn't in the Codes Vaticanus and Sinaticus (3rd century).

There have been periodic additions since that time, such as in John's Epistles, but most have been identified and removed. Yet there are some word substitutions, such as the use of the word "church" in Matthew 16. (The word "church" didn't exist when the original was written)which have been left.

So there is no prophetic mention in any scripture in the Bible pertaining to prophetic utterance that any book would 'come to pass' to be representative of being 'The Word of God'?

'Scripture' thus amounts to whatever humans decided to place into the pages to make the book they made and proclaim it as 'the word of god', and beyond reproach of argument for that...an unquestionable artifact beyond mortal reproach.

CONCLUSION: The contents of the bible, its historical and scientific accuracy, its prophetic detail, as well as the practical benefits millions have drawn from applying its principles, convinces many that it is not just an exceptional book but, is what it claims to be, "the word of God".

This is somewhat an argument from popularity?

10. Thou shalt not argue that because a premise is popular, therefore it must be true (Bandwagon fallacy / argumentum ad populum

While I wouldn't personally argue that there are not gems of wisdom to be garnered from biblical passages, I would not ignore that there isn't also some horrific/evil/humanized concepts attributed to this god and his followers/supporters either.

This makes the bible something of an oxymoron and deserving of no spacial place among the books of humankind.

It does not proclaim itself 'The Word' of any GOD, and settles nothing in the way of the natural enough debate regrading the oft seen extremes related to the behavior of the god, described in some cases as 'The One True God' - which only becomes understandable under the light of 'an entity evolving from one state of being to another...from a darker time to a more revealing one...the process of transformation of the understanding the self, and reevaluating self identity to suit.

If that were the case, then the definition of 'what a god is' needs to be reevaluated in the mind of our understanding, for that.

'Scripture' is most likely anything which comes from an alternate source which an individual has as an experience with, because it is experience which defines the connection we all have irrespective of cultural influence )politics, gender, beliefs. et al) which delegates that experience into categories of 'what is acceptable' and 'what is not.'.

If my heart were focused in love upon that idea of god, the experiences I have which inspire me to write a poem, create a work of art, compose a song, sing that song, write this post etc et al...can be considered 'Scripture' by what is said in the bible re scripture and inspiration from GOD.

Since I am most certainly not adverse to the idea of GOD, I am permitted to produce 'scripture' pertaining to that idea and since the bible is a closed book on the matter - through human intervention into the area of 'the word of god', I see no reason at all as to why the bible should be treated with any more respect than any other book written by the hand of man. Including my own writing on the subject.

All things being equal.

Anyway, I am sure I have read in the bible that Jesus gave reference to himself being 'the word of God'. If my memory serves me well, and this is the case, then the argument is resolved that therefore, no - the bible is not the word of god and contains scripture pointing to who is the word of God.

[polonius]

RESPONSE: So are you now trying to argue that the "many" Matthew claimed were resurrected at Jesus' death and showed themselves to many residents of Jerusalem really weren't going to die anyway?

No I am saying that your statement that the bible claims people can only die once, was wrong.

RESPONSE:

Actually, I think that is Paul’s BIBLICAL TEACHING in Hebrews 9:27. Not originally mine.

http://www.simplybible.com/f162.htm

"It is appointed for men once to die, and after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27)

In the phrase "It is appointed for men once to die..." we find our first fact, that death is unavoidable…. When Hebrews 9:27 says "it is appointed for men once to die...", it does so generically, with no sense of gender. In other words "men" here stands for all humankind —man, whether male or female…. In the words "it is appointed for men once to die..." we have our third fact, that you only die once."

Comment: It seems pretty clear to me. Are you claiming the Bible says or implies a person can have multiple deaths? Where do you find that written in the Bible?

Are you still trying to argue that it would not necessarily have been a miracle the “many� persons were resurrected when Jesus died and that THEY did not announce that fact to MANY in Jerusalem?


JW posted

I have already written extensively regarding my understanding of Matthew 27: 52-53:

QUESTION: But does Matthew 27:52 refer to the a "mass resurrection" ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 289#840289

Question: Who reported the events of Matthew 27:52 in Jerusalem?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 419#840419

QUESTION: And do the readers of your extensive writings find them credible?

[JehovahsWitness]

CONCLUSION: The contents of the bible, its historical and scientific accuracy, its prophetic detail, as well as the practical benefits millions have drawn from applying its principles, convinces many that it is not just an exceptional book but, is what it claims to be, "the word of God".

This is somewhat an argument from popularity?

No it is not; it is a statement of fact. This fact was not presented as evidencce of inspiration in itself, the bible isn't true because millions believe it it be so, but rather that it is understood by many to be so because of the the factual information presented in the post (you will notice the statement of fact about the conclusion drawn by others is in the conclusion not in the body of the text). I believe it is a relevant piece of information, since if may people hold Something to be true, it may at the very least be deemed a fitting subject of investigation, if only to understand its social and historical impact, but the bible's popularity was not in itself presented as direct evidence of inspiration.

[JehovahsWitness]

Are you claiming the Bible says or implies a person can have multiple deaths? Where do you find that written in the Bible?

No, I am have not mentioned the expression "multiple deaths" I am claiming you are wrong when you said that the bible claim one can only die once.


QUESTION Does the bible indicate it is possible for a person to die more than once?


Yes, notably in Revelation Chapter 20 verses 13 -15 which states:

The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death — the lake of fire. And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Also the bible reports 8 cases of individuals, evidently bought back to life as humans to continue living on the earth with their families. None of these individuals are considered to be alive today so it seems reasonable to conclude they all die, for the second time.

CONCLUSION The bible makes no explicit statement that dying more than once is not possible, and indicates in fact, that such a thing is indeed possible when, in revelation it speaks of death and hades (the grave) "giving up" or releasing people and then speaks about a "second death" after a final judgement.

[William]

CONCLUSION: The contents of the bible, its historical and scientific accuracy, its prophetic detail, as well as the practical benefits millions have drawn from applying its principles, convinces many that it is not just an exceptional book but, is what it claims to be, "the word of God".

This is somewhat an argument from popularity?

No it is not; it is a statement of fact. This fact was not presented as evidencce of inspiration in itself, the bible isn't true because millions believe it it be so, but rather that it is understood by many to be so because of the the factual information presented in the post (you will notice the statement of fact about the conclusion drawn by others is in the conclusion not in the body of the text). I believe it is a relevant piece of information, since if may people hold Something to be true, it may at the very least be deemed a fitting subject of investigation, if only to understand its social and historical impact, but the bible's popularity was not in itself presented as direct evidence of inspiration.

Potato/potato


The fact is that the bible doesn't claim to be the irrevocable 'word of God'. It only claims that scripture is inspired and it is inferred therefore to fully contain all scripture, and that therefore can be used to discern anything which might have good cause to disagree with anything contained within it, to being 'besides the point' or otherwise 'highly suspect.'.

Such as is the case (on how the bible is used for this purpose) does not signify it is somehow therefore 'the word of god' whether people choose to call it that by popular decree or whatever other reasons they come up with to make the claim.

[polonius]

Are you claiming the Bible says or implies a person can have multiple deaths? Where do you find that written in the Bible?

No, I am have not mentioned the expression "multiple deaths" I am claiming you are wrong when you said that the bible claim one can only die once.


QUESTION Does the bible indicate it is possible for a person to die more than once?


Yes, notably in Revelation Chapter 20 verses 13 -15 which states:

The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death — the lake of fire. And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

RESPONSE: While by no stretch of the imagination do I take Revelation to be inspired, the plain meaning of words does not claim that a person dies twice. Read closely:

The sea gave up its dead....And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

(1)This throwing into the lake of fire follows the person's (particular or immediate) judgment following death.

(2)Death and Hades contain those who have already died in the past and been judged and condemned. There is a general judgment of both groups. Then the final judgment on both groups is complete.



Also the bible reports 8 cases of individuals, evidently bought back ???to life as humans to continue living on the earth with their families. None of these individuals are considered to be alive today so it seems reasonable to conclude they all die, for the second time.

RESPONSE: It is more reasonable to conclude that this is yet another of Matthew's fictions.

"None of these people are considered (by whom???) to be alive today?

CONCLUSION The bible makes no explicit statement that dying more than once is not possible, and indicates in fact, that such a thing is indeed possible when, in revelation it speaks of death and hades (the grave) "giving up" or releasing people and then speaks about a "second death" after a final judgement.

Sorry, the Revelation fiction has us believe that those already dead and condemned are added to the final (or general) judgment, of all those who have ever lived.

You are still arguing beside the original topic regarding the resurrection of the "many" and their appearances to the "many" witnesses in Jerusalem, (which try to claim was done by only witnesses to their resurrection, something none of the other evangelists or any others report nor do any witnesses or persons told by these "many" witnesses. In short, it only the writer Matthews'yarn. (who wrote 50 years after the alleged event and was not an eyewitness).

[polonius]

RESPONSE: So are you now trying to argue that the "many" Matthew claimed were resurrected at Jesus' death and showed themselves to many residents of Jerusalem really weren't going to die anyway?

No I am saying that your statement that the bible claims people can only die once, was wrong.







I have already written extensively regarding my understanding of Matthew 27: 52-53:

QUESTION: But does Matthew 27:52 refer to the a "mass resurrection" ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 289#840289

Question: Who reported the events of Matthew 27:52 in Jerusalem?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?
p=840419#840419

QUESTION: But don't these "extensive writings" deal with Muslim belief not the question at hand?

[polonius]

Let's get back to Elijah John's original post dealing with the JW Organization (in general).

Is this statement accurate?

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... estaments/

“…Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the entire Bible is “inspired of God and beneficial.� (2 Timothy 3:16) That includes both the Old Testament and the New Testament, as they are commonly called. Generally, Jehovah’s Witnesses refer to these sections of the Bible as the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Greek Scriptures. In this way, we avoid giving the impression that some parts of the Bible are outdated or irrelevant.�

Opinions?